Learjet 60 crash in West Palm Beach

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CFI A&P said:
Sounds entirely possible. Is there a source for this?
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Rushed isn’t the word I use. Scripted, to a fault, is. There is no room for “things you want to see or do”. Even though they like to pretend the training is there for you. It’s not. It’s there to check the FAA boxes and get you to pass in the allotted time you(or your company) paid for.

I’m flying three types right now. Thankfully my company sends us to recurrent every 12 months. Which puts me in an FSI building very regularly. I’m telling you I could fly the MEM RNAV 27 circle to Rwy 18R blindfolded with a broken arm and my sisters kids climbing all over the cockpit and still nail it within standards.

But that’s not training. That’s not making me a better, safer, more knowledgeable pilot.

Let’s have an engine failure on a warm day out of Aspen and the gear won’t come up.

Let’s fly over a convective area at altitude and have an engine failure and see just how far down single engine drift down is going to be. Sure you’re clearing the tops now but what if we lost one?

Let’s do 35kt crosswind landings in COS.

Or landing in Florida in moderate rain.
Or contaminated runway simulations
Or a myriad of other scenarios that they don’t cover at all that need to be seen in a simulator before you have to go do it for real.

I feel his sentiment though. I haven’t heard yet how much time he had in type. Hopefully if this statement of his is true he wasn’t speaking about his initial type training.

Edit to add show me any 1300 pilot in their first jet that isn’t a little too reliant on the autopilot. And even if true her lack of basic flying skills don’t mean • when you don’t have a tail. Given the scenario im pretty sure Bob Hoover wasn’t getting them out of it once it turned south.
 
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Wardogg said:
Rushed isn’t the word I use. Scripted, to a fault, is. There is no room for “things you want to see or do”. Even though they like to pretend the training is there for you. It’s not. It’s there to check the FAA boxes and get you to pass in the allotted time you(or your company) paid for.
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No argument here. Some of the instructors at 142 schools are incredibly knowledgeable and passionate about their craft, but corporate limits the ability to teach anything that's not on the script.

Circle at JFK, MEM, or JNU? Yawn, we can all do those in our sleep. How about ILS 6 circle 1 at TEB when the weather is • with 30kt NW winds? Sorry, can't do that - it isn't on the approved maneuvers.
 
Wardogg said:
Rushed isn’t the word I use. Scripted, to a fault, is. There is no room for “things you want to see or do”. Even though they like to pretend the training is there for you. It’s not. It’s there to check the FAA boxes and get you to pass in the allotted time you(or your company) paid for.

I’m flying three types right now. Thankfully my company sends us to recurrent every 12 months. Which puts me in an FSI building very regularly. I’m telling you I could fly the MEM RNAV 27 circle to Rwy 18R blindfolded with a broken arm and my sisters kids climbing all over the cockpit and still nail it within standards.

But that’s not training. That’s not making me a better, safer, more knowledgeable pilot.

Let’s have an engine failure on a warm day out of Aspen and the gear won’t come up.

Let’s fly over a convective area at altitude and have an engine failure and see just how far down single engine drift down is going to be. Sure you’re clearing the tops now but what if we lost one?

Let’s do 35kt crosswind landings in COS.

Or landing in Florida in moderate rain.
Or contaminated runway simulations
Or a myriad of other scenarios that they don’t cover at all that need to be seen in a simulator before you have to go do it for real.

I feel his sentiment though. I haven’t heard yet how much time he had in type. Hopefully if this statement of his is true he wasn’t speaking about his initial type training.

Edit to add show me any 1300 pilot in their first jet that isn’t a little too reliant on the autopilot. And even if true her lack of basic flying skills don’t mean • when you don’t have a tail. Given the scenario im pretty sure Bob Hoover wasn’t getting them out of it once it turned south.
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Excellent points on the FO. I’m quite sure well over 50% of FO’s at the airlines with 1500 on their first jet have the same note somewhere in their training file.
 
Wardogg said:
Rushed isn’t the word I use. Scripted, to a fault, is. There is no room for “things you want to see or do”. Even though they like to pretend the training is there for you. It’s not. It’s there to check the FAA boxes and get you to pass in the allotted time you(or your company) paid for.

I’m flying three types right now. Thankfully my company sends us to recurrent every 12 months. Which puts me in an FSI building very regularly. I’m telling you I could fly the MEM RNAV 27 circle to Rwy 18R blindfolded with a broken arm and my sisters kids climbing all over the cockpit and still nail it within standards.

But that’s not training. That’s not making me a better, safer, more knowledgeable pilot.

Let’s have an engine failure on a warm day out of Aspen and the gear won’t come up.

Let’s fly over a convective area at altitude and have an engine failure and see just how far down single engine drift down is going to be. Sure you’re clearing the tops now but what if we lost one?

Let’s do 35kt crosswind landings in COS.

Or landing in Florida in moderate rain.
Or contaminated runway simulations
Or a myriad of other scenarios that they don’t cover at all that need to be seen in a simulator before you have to go do it for real.

I feel his sentiment though. I haven’t heard yet how much time he had in type. Hopefully if this statement of his is true he wasn’t speaking about his initial type training.

Edit to add show me any 1300 pilot in their first jet that isn’t a little too reliant on the autopilot. And even if true her lack of basic flying skills don’t mean • when you don’t have a tail. Given the scenario im pretty sure Bob Hoover wasn’t getting them out of it once it turned south.
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Too funny, and agree 100%. On day one of recurrent, start the roll, thinking to my self… ‘okay, here is where we lose oil pressure’…. LOL on the circle to land 18 right. Been retired for 3 years, still remember 1100’?
 
I got yelled at on my 767 IOE for NOT using the autopilot. I got behind the plane on an approach/arrival and clicked off the autopilot going into Maui. I was a 72 guy and hand flying was my natural fall back. IOE guy was saying you gotta make it work with the autopilot cause what happens when the visibility is bad and you need to do an autoland. He wasn't wrong.
 
I was paired with some rando part 91 guy at MCO FlightSafety when I did my 525 type 16 years ago. He was absolutely TERRIBLE. I couldn’t believe he passed. Zero chance he would pass a 121 training event. I had to coach him on the most basic IFR knowledge.
 
Itchy said:
I wonder how this got released, or who even gets this. Does the employer get the notes, or just kept internal to fsi?
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As a PM at flight safety for a while- we never sent comments out unless we were contacting the company because of a problem with the pilot, and, we would never release this to anybody except for the NTSB. When a crew was in an incident/accident all records were sealed to prevent this.

Letting this out would be a massive liability to FSI, so I’d say 90% chance it’s fake, 10% chance an instructor is getting canned.

More likely to be somebody who was in class with them spreading rumors.
 
DE727UPS said:
I got yelled at on my 767 IOE for NOT using the autopilot. I got behind the plane on an approach/arrival and clicked off the autopilot going into Maui. I was a 72 guy and hand flying was my natural fall back. IOE guy was saying you gotta make it work with the autopilot cause what happens when the visibility is bad and you need to do an autoland. He wasn't wrong.
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Agreed, one has to be good, comfortable, and safe, at both hand flying / raw data basics, as well as autopilot / automation. There’s time and place for both, as you mention, so neither can be minimized
 
This page in particular starting with the FSI post leak is basically full of Corpie gonna Corp.




Like @Minuteman said, that’s a hell of thing for that Tommy to just put out there. Even if it’s half true, why not just a bit. Because all this is gonna do is give fuel to the fire of the attention seeking w****s out there like retireeeee Steeeeeeeve.
 
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