The Student Being The Customer... discuss

[wrxpilot]

So you guys are saying I'm a crappy pilot because I don't know how to use a slide rule era device?

As a former engineer, using the E6B came very natural to me and I did encourage its use among my primary students. But I certainly didn't force it on them. If they wanted to use an E6B, that was fine by me. I just told them to always have some spare batteries. Some people just don't think that way, and there's no benefit in causing them to get frustrated over something they aren't going to use that much anyway. I've only had one student in 700 hrs of dual given that didn't want to use the manual E6B though. Maybe I just teach it well?

I agree with some of the other comments about electronic E6Bs. Huge pain in the ass that takes much longer than the old circular slide rule. Much more likely to make a mistake with the electronic one too.

 

[Goonie]

Students are customers!

buuut....they WILL do it my way or they can find another instructor. I tell all my students what they are getting into when the fly with me. I will "praise when praise is due" but I will also tell them when they are falling behind. I dont sugar coat anything!

I had a student FALL ASLEEP on final once! I think they cried on the ramp for thirty minutes after I got done with them. That "student is the customer"goes out the window when they pull ######## like that.

 

[Number1atNumber2]

Holy hell! That's BAD! I'd be ready to fire the student after that.

 

[Goonie]

Holy hell! That's BAD! I'd be ready to fire the student after that.

Its happened a couple times. Usually the Indian students stay up all night chatting on the internet to their friends in India.

 

[bdhill1979]

I look at it this way:

The student is a customer insofar as it is my job to provide them with quality training for a fee; give them good value for the money spent. That is were it ends. I aint slangin' pilot certificates, I am giving quality training for pay. I do not give a rat's blue ass if the student thinks he knows better, he doesn't, that is why he is the student and I am the instructor.

Call me old fashioned but as my student you will:

• Navigate proficiently with a compass and a stopwatch before you are even told what a VOR is.
• Calculate ground speed, time, distance, and fuel burn with an E6B with one hand in flight (much easier than it sounds) before you learn how to program the GPS.
• Be able to point to exactly where we are on the sectional chart at any given time before and moving map display is allowed.

So far all of the students I have sent to a PPL checkride have passed in under 50 hours. When the basics are taught first, the more complex stuff is really easy.

 

[germb747]

Call me old fashioned but as my student you will:

• Navigate proficiently with a compass and a stopwatch before you are even told what a VOR is.
• Calculate ground speed, time, distance, and fuel burn with an E6B with one hand in flight (much easier than it sounds) before you learn how to program the GPS.
• Be able to point to exactly where we are on the sectional chart at any given time before and moving map display is allowed.

:yeahthat:

 

[tonyw]

As a former engineer, using the E6B came very natural to me and I did encourage its use among my primary students. But I certainly didn't force it on them. If they wanted to use an E6B, that was fine by me. I just told them to always have some spare batteries. Some people just don't think that way, and there's no benefit in causing them to get frustrated over something they aren't going to use that much anyway. I've only had one student in 700 hrs of dual given that didn't want to use the manual E6B though. Maybe I just teach it well?

I got the electronic E6B as an hand me down from someone who also gave me my headset.

And when I was doing my primary training, the instructors -- multiple ones since they alll wanted to be sure I could handle flying before they cut me loose -- said, look, I don't care how you figure out how to handle a wind correction or a cross wind determination as long as you get it right.

I'm not saying this to be a prick, but isn't that what it's all about? Getting the right answer?

You folks are probably right. It probably takes just as long if not longer for me to figure out the wind correction or the crosswind on the electronic E6B as it does the mechanical one.

But the bottom line is, who cares? As long as I get it right, who cares?

It's like baseball. Every single major league batter has their own stance.

As long as they get hits, who cares?

There is no way I could hit a slow pitch softball pitch with a batting stance like say Julio Franco. But he hit major league pitching, so who cares?

 

[derg]

It's kind of a joint "contract" between the CFI and the student.

I had a student that demanded to use his handheld GPS during a dual cross country which I didn't agree with because it wasn't a simple flight from point-a to point-b, it was a cross country lesson on pilotage, dead reckoning and VOR work.

"GPS is better"

"GPS's aren't in the lesson plan we need to complete today, perhaps at a later date".

I could have been a "cool guy" and let him go using it, but then the liability was mine when he showed up for his checkride without suitable pilotage and dead reckoning skills and the DPE wasn't willing to let him substitute those skills with his Garmin and I've certified that I taught him all of the manuevers in the PTS and he was ready for his checkride.

 

[Prino]

all the planes our school has are GPS equipped, i try not to use it as much as possible on my xc and had no problem getting where i was...i didnt use dead reckoning as much as i did pilotage. of course it took a few xc before i felt comfortable enough not to hit the direct button on the gps...honestly i found it really boring to fly a 120 nm leg when all i had to do was maintain altitude and look at the gps every few minutes. though i understand it, i have a hard time calculating ground speed, i know if i need to i can just call ATC and request a groundspeed check

 

[germb747]

all the planes our school has are GPS equipped, i try not to use it as much as possible on my xc and had no problem getting where i was...i didnt use dead reckoning as much as i did pilotage. of course it took a few xc before i felt comfortable enough not to hit the direct button on the gps...honestly i found it really boring to fly a 120 nm leg when all i had to do was maintain altitude and look at the gps every few minutes. though i understand it, i have a hard time calculating ground speed, i know if i need to i can just call ATC and request a groundspeed check

Flying XC with a "direct to" on the GPS is boring. Pilotage and dead reckoning are fun and it keeps your mind in the game. When I did my flight training, GPS wasn't in wide use; in fact none of the planes at my flight school were equipped with it. A couple of the planes were DME equipped, which I looked at as space age technology back then! I'm also glad I was lucky enough to be able to learn how to fly when I was in high school and was much less concerned with "being the customer" and just did it the way I was taught and trusted the instructor to teach me right. I suppose if I were just starting out now, I'd probably be inclined to take a much larger role in "running the program" (because that's what I see a lot of older folks do), which really isn't a good thing to do. If you don't trust the instructor and aren't willing to do it his way (at least until you're flying on a ticket with your own name on it), then find a competent instructor you do trust.

 

[Prino]

Flying XC with a "direct to" on the GPS is boring. Pilotage and dead reckoning are fun and it keeps your mind in the game. When I did my flight training, GPS wasn't in wide use; in fact none of the planes at my flight school were equipped with it. A couple of the planes were DME equipped, which I looked at as space age technology back then! I'm also glad I was lucky enough to be able to learn how to fly when I was in high school and was much less concerned with "being the customer" and just did it the way I was taught and trusted the instructor to teach me right. I suppose if I were just starting out now, I'd probably be inclined to take a much larger role in "running the program" (because that's what I see a lot of older folks do), which really isn't a good thing to do. If you don't trust the instructor and aren't willing to do it his way (at least until you're flying on a ticket with your own name on it), then find a competent instructor you do trust.

one thing i love about the gps our planes have is that they help you with traffic. the reason im even flying is that i am working on getting hired as a controller. as you can imagine, i am not one that subscribes to the "big sky" theory. its nice to have every little bit of help when it comes to looking out for other aircraft

 

[germb747]

one thing i love about the gps our planes have is that they help you with traffic. the reason im even flying is that i am working on getting hired as a controller. as you can imagine, i am not one that subscribes to the "big sky" theory. its nice to have every little bit of help when it comes to looking out for other aircraft

That's definitely a feature I'd take advantage of if so equipped. I also don't object to using the map display for situational awareness especially if you're flying in say, the D.C. area. But folks have to take the time to learn the fundamentals, or they're really cheating themselves. Fly your headings and times, keep a good fuel log, and then take a look at the GPS and see how well you're doing.

 

[Prino]

That's definitely a feature I'd take advantage of if so equipped. I also don't object to using the map display for situational awareness especially if you're flying in say, the D.C. area. But folks have to take the time to learn the fundamentals, or they're really cheating themselves. Fly your headings and times, keep a good fuel log, and then take a look at the GPS and see how well you're doing.

exactly, as a student, personally, i feel im cheating myself if i dont learn how to fly without gps because not every plane i fly will have it...or with the e6b...i have an electronic one, which i like because its very precise, but i can get close enough with the traditional one just as fast, and i dont have to rely on technology

 

[germb747]

exactly, as a student, personally, i feel im cheating myself if i dont learn how to fly without gps because not every plane i fly will have it...or with the e6b...i have an electronic one, which i like because its very precise, but i can get close enough with the traditional one just as fast, and i dont have to rely on technology

For the record, I've never used an electronic E6B. A mechanical one came with my flight kit and I simply learned how to use to "spin the winds" ever since and I still carry it with me. After watching the King videos, I was a pro at it. Where does the arrow point to? How fast. Where does the grommet go? Ground speed. The formulas are printed on the face of the calculator so I just refer to them to find the information I want.

 

[jwp_145]

I got the electronic E6B as an hand me down from someone who also gave me my headset.

And when I was doing my primary training, the instructors -- multiple ones since they alll wanted to be sure I could handle flying before they cut me loose -- said, look, I don't care how you figure out how to handle a wind correction or a cross wind determination as long as you get it right.

I'm not saying this to be a prick, but isn't that what it's all about? Getting the right answer?

You folks are probably right. It probably takes just as long if not longer for me to figure out the wind correction or the crosswind on the electronic E6B as it does the mechanical one.

But the bottom line is, who cares? As long as I get it right, who cares?

It's like baseball. Every single major league batter has their own stance.

As long as they get hits, who cares?

There is no way I could hit a slow pitch softball pitch with a batting stance like say Julio Franco. But he hit major league pitching, so who cares?

Tony, you don't seem to get it. The student is the student. THe student is not the instructor. I bet your instructor loved you arguing with him.

 

[tonyw]

Tony, you don't seem to get it. The student is the student. THe student is not the instructor. I bet your instructor loved you arguing with him.

There was no arguing because my instructor didn't give a crap. Nor did the chief instructor where I got my training. Nor does the guy who is helping me with my on again, off again instrument training.

None of them have said, no, you've got to do it with the mechanical one.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

The students are my customers, buying the services I provide.

If they do not like the services they recive from me, they are free to go elsewhere.


I will not budge on fundmentals, but other trivial stuff like manual or electonic E6bs I leave to the students discretion. As long as they know how to use the tools, I don't care.

Yeah, really, who cares? This isn't a big deal at all, and I don't think it deserves its own thread. I used the electronic one all the way through my CFI, and didn't learn it until I was forced to.

 

[ILS37R]

As long as students demonstrate an understanding of the fundamentals, it's not important to me what tool they use. As an instructor, it's sometimes easy to forget that not everyone is the same type of learner I am. Concepts and methodologies that come naturally to me may be totally foreign to my students and vice-versa. It's my job to tailor instruction to that which is effective for the student.

While I feel it's essential a new pilot understand the basics behind the E6B, cross-country flight planning, pilotage, and weight and balance and performance calculations, I want them to use whichever tool is most effective for them. An important part of safe decision-making is having confidence in the information being parsed. I'd much rather have a student make a quick, correct decision using their electronic E6B than a delayed, marginal one because they and the whiz wheel just don't grok.

I may be paid to get people their certificates, but it's my responsibility as a professional to make them safe pilots. I'll use whatever tools it takes to achieve the latter goal, whether or not they're my personal methods.

 

[tprops4me]

Be assertive and make them use it or don't. The choice is yours. If they have airline flying dreams they need to get used to being told how to fly anyway so it should not be an issue.

Mojo, you wake up on the wrong side of the bed??

 

[nosehair]

But the bottom line is, who cares? As long as I get it right, who cares?

I care. ..and so do all the 'old guys' who try to make you do it the hard way.

Here's the deal: 'Gettin' it right' is not necessarily a positive indicator of ability and skill.

Take cross-wind landings, for example.

To make a good, non-skidding x/wind landing, you need to be able to hold the upwind wing into the wind precisely enough to counter the x/wind drift and precisely enough opposite rudder to offset the turning tendency due to the bank, and land on the one upwind wheel, precisely holding off the downwind wheel and landing it smoothly as speed is dissipated and finally landing the nosewheel as speed is further dissipated. One, two,..and three, like that.

But, a student can crab down final, kick it straight at the last moment and skid into a slightly crabbing touch-down that looks and feels..well, pretty good to the uninitiated... to the student/private/fresh commercial pilot who has never been required to 'three point' in a severe cross-wind, he thinks he's pretty good and does not see the need to become really proficient at slipping down final.

"Slips?? They're dangerous...and I don't have to."

The instructor knows. Do what he says.

Of course, this whole concept is based on the instructor does have the experience and judgement that you expect of an instructor. You give him control of your learning environment and expect that his professional judgement is best. Do as he says.

If you cannot blindly accept him as your best model to copy, then you need to find someone who makes you feel that way, or ...maybe you really are a danger to the flying environment. This environment is not forgiving, like so many other professions I have seen referenced here, like engineers using old slide rules and other similar methods of 'computation'.

These professions are carried out in offices, and maybe the open field, but not in a cockpit on a dark and stormy night.

The E6B works there. With one hand.