Commercial maneuvers are driving me CRAZY

c172captain

Well-Known Member
My commercial checkride is this friday and the only maneuver I have perfectly mastered is my steep turns. I AM GOING TO FAIL! Any tips for me get help me understand how to do these $%*#ing maneuvers? The Lazy eight and eights-on-pylons are giving me the most trouble.
 
I remember those days.......

Lazy 8's probably were the toughest for me, followed by Eights On.

My instructor actually had me do eights on ONE pylon, just to see how pivotal altitude changes throughout the turn. It seemed to have worked.
 
I am still working on my commercial rating and I know how you are feeling. When i started i had a lot of trouble with them, but as i practiced they got much better. on the lazy eights make sure to use rudder on the right turn to coordinate. it helps a lot to sink through your 90 degree point. on the eights on pylons i have noticed that the more bank i used the less pitching up and down i had to do. just make sure not to exceed 30 degrees of the bank because (although not 100%) i am pretty sure he'll bust ya on that. Good luck on your check ride.
 
As far as the lazy eights go, remember to take your time doing the maneuver. I used to teach a lot of Commercial applicants, and it seemed like everyone wanted to rush through that maneuver. Remember that it is a slow and lazy maneuver.

As far as eights on pylons, try to think about how the wind will effect your groundspeed, and how to correct for it. I'm sure that you will get it with a little bit of practice.
 
:yeahthat:

Lazy 8s are a very slow (aka lazy) maneuver that can be properly flown with just your fingertips lightly touching the yoke.

My biggest problem with 8s-on was over correcting. By the time you have climbed or descended the amount appropriate for the wind to keep your pivotal altitude, you're already overshooting that altitude, plus of course the pivotal altitude changes constantly if there is any wind. Small and immediate corrections work best.
 
Quick Tip: Reschedule the checkride. Better yet, cancel the current appointment and reschedule only after you are prepared for the checkride. By removing the pressure of a pending checkride, you can focus more dilligently on mastering the maneuvers. I am certain the examiner would much rather reschedule when you are prepared to succeed than to find his or her candidate ill-prepared on the appointed day.
 
Not sure if this applies to you, but my biggest downfall was thinking I had time to reach the stall. This is contradictory, because it IS a lazy maneuver, but it's what happened to me. If it does, slow, smooth, and FIRM is the way to go. Make the airplane do what you want it to do.

As HCKEY said above, get to the stall and let the plane sink (controlled, of course) through the 90' point, and surprisingly it makes the entire maneuver alot smoother.

This may not be your worries, but it's my attempt to sound like I know what I'm talking about :).

Take it slow, and don't CKride until YOU are ready, ignore the syllabus schedule.
 
:yeahthat:

Lazy 8s are a very slow (aka lazy) maneuver that can be properly flown with just your fingertips lightly touching the yoke.

My biggest problem with 8s-on was over correcting. By the time you have climbed or descended the amount appropriate for the wind to keep your pivotal altitude, you're already overshooting that altitude, plus of course the pivotal altitude changes constantly if there is any wind. Small and immediate corrections work best.

Straight from the person who taught me!!

Its a shame though, if I had a person walk into our school to work on commercial maneuvers I would probably decline. I havent done them since my checkride 8 months ago.

-Rob
 
:banghead::banghead::banghead:

I have another lesson tomorrow and another one on thursday, I am prayin that this clicks so that I don't have to deal with rescheduling my checkride
 
All those commercial maneuvers didn't really start clicking for me until I kicked my instructor out of the airplane and went and practiced by myself for a bit. A good dose of U2's "Mysterious Ways" going on in the headset helped too.....

Seriously, reschedule, take a deep breath, don't overthink it and try to fit it in some formula, and make it smooth!

The good news is that unless you become a CFI you'll never have to do them again!
 
The good news is that unless you become a CFI you'll never have to do them again!

I have a CFI/CFII course scheduled to be taken on July 10. If I fail/reschedule this checkride, I could potentially not be able to retake my commercial ride in time to take the course.
 
... once it's been mentioned to me that abandoning the mission is one of the hardest things to do. If there's that much doubt in the pit of your gut at this point, cancel. What if you got sick the day before the checkride? You'd have to cancel/reschedule, wouldn't you?. This is no different. The ironic thing is, it's your first 'commercial decision' :-) , aeronautical decision making comes to mind. External perssures vs. the safety of the mission. Tony Kern wrote a quite a bit on this subject. ... but that's a different stroy.
 
You're right. Tomorrow I am going up with a different, more experience instructor in the hopes that he may find out the problems and hammer out the kinks, if that fails then I will cancel and reschedule.
 
If you haven't tried another CFI I say go for it if you have the option. Sometimes one CFI's way of teaching the 8s-on-pylons and lazy 8s just doesn't click but the second CFI's way of teaching works like a charm.

For me when I fly the Lazy 8, I try to let the aircraft fly the maneuver as much as possible. You pretty much start the maneuver and end the maneuver. The middle is pretty much flown by the aircraft.

I also found that it is easier to fly the 8s-on-pylons by keeping the turn tight around the point and also by anticipating what the wind will do to you. An example is when turning into the wind. When you turn into the wind your speed will decrease. When your speed decreases your pivotal altitude decreases. So as you turn into the wind you can start to descend. As you start to turn downwind you can start climbing again before you get behind the aircraft.
 
My advice to you would be to take time before your next lesson to review the manuever and figure out whats supposed to go on aerodynamically throughout every manuever. Once you figure out whats happening, it makes it a lot easier to make small adjustments to make the manuevers work out for you.

Lets see can I give you and example from what I remember. I don't have time to really research anything. Please make corrections as neccessary.

Chandelles

The manuever begins by banking over 30 degrees and increasing power....slowly increasing pitch until you get to the 90 degree point in the turn. At this point you hold a constant pitch (you're gonna have to slowly increase back pressure to hold a constant pitch) and slowly begin taking out the back angle. The manuever essentially ends as slow flight in the clean configuration 180 degrees opposite of where the manuever begin.

Whats does this demonstrate? Lets say that you've gotten yourself in a box canyon. This manuevers gives you the best chance of escaping your predicament with the minimum turn radius and a maximum gain of altitude.

As you start the manuever, you're banking over to the maximum bank angle and slowly initiating the climb. You have no worries about stalling because you have plenty of airspeed. After passing through 90 degrees, airspeed is decreasing to the point where if you hold a constant bank angle, the aircraft will stall. If you increase pitch, the aircraft will stall. If you allow pitch to decrease, you wont be getting the optimal climb and the aircraft will run into the mountain. If you roll out the turn to early, you'll run into the mountain. Your best bet is to take out just enough bank angle that the aircraft is just above stall (for the given bank angle) and giving you the most optimal climb possible. This calls for slow decrease in bank angle and a slow increase in back pressure (to hold the constant pitch).

Remember these manuevers are all about finesse! Good luck!
 
I remember those days.......

Lazy 8's probably were the toughest for me, followed by Eights On.

My instructor actually had me do eights on ONE pylon, just to see how pivotal altitude changes throughout the turn. It seemed to have worked.

same here

i keep forgetting if I pull up or down if the point is infront of me lol
 
The maneuvers are a joke. You will find that the examiner wants it a different way that you were taught (doesn't matter who your instructor is) and that he/she will want you to do it their way.
 
The maneuvers are a joke. You will find that the examiner wants it a different way that you were taught (doesn't matter who your instructor is) and that he/she will want you to do it their way.

Doesn't matter, he/she still wants to see your knowledge level, and if you can adapt. Hence, commercial pilot.
 
Lazy 8's always gave me trouble until I learned to let the plane fly itself. Just relax and let the aircraft do its thing. As for 8's-On pylons (if you're in a low wing aircraft), put your reference point a few inches above a fixed point the wing tip. Then keep the point centered on your wing, if the point moves forward on the wing, descend, if the point moves aft, climb.

Does your instructor know how you feel about the impending checkride?
 
Yeah he does, although his response is more of the ignorant "stop having negative thoughts, you'll do fine" as he sits next to me and I bust the requirements for the maneuvers.
 
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