Pinnacle says Delta intends to terminate contract!

[blee256]

I always wondered this. . .and I suppose I could find it. . .but where exactly is this -900 going?

MEM, DTW, and MSP?

Because of our ASA with NW, they cant fly into our hubs. I think thats pretty standard in the industry. The -900s are based in ATL and they fly to Houston (dont know if its IAH or Hobby), St Croix, a couple others. Kellwolf might be able to fill you in on the rest.

 

[Cruise]

Skywest has already been given this replacement flying.

Honestly, please use some tact when you post. You're making YOUR company look bad.

Hah, that's nothing new!




This seems to be a very underhanded/ unethical move by DL.....without knowing all the information. And, that is what we have (or don't have...). But hey, what do we expect from airline management types? They thrive on unethical business practices.

Good luck to all the PCL guys/ gals.

 

[H46Bubba]

This is just my guess- but I think PNCL will get an injuction to keep flying it under the current CPA. By the time it gets to court, Delta will be in dire times, travel will decline and Delta will win in court. Thy this time- it will be winter.

Don't count on that. Mesa won their injunction and even though they're still getting paid, Delta won't put their a/c back in the schedule, hence the ERJ parking lot down in FLO. Delta is recouping the money it pays for the CPA by saving money on fuel costs since they're parked and not flying. Per the shedule bulletin from last Friday, there are no PNCL -900 lines after July 31st.

 

[SmitteyB]

Very good point.

I was completely wrong.

 

[Cruise]

Don't count on that. Mesa won their injunction and even though they're still getting paid, Delta won't put their a/c back in the schedule, hence the ERJ parking lot down in FLO. Delta is recouping the money it pays for the CPA by saving money on fuel costs since they're parked and not flying. Per the shedule bulletin from last Friday, there are no PNCL -900 lines after July 31st.

I was not aware of that. Very interesting. So, do you think this is the plan for the PCL DL flying as well? Pay the company to do no flying? From the original post, it didn't sound that way to me....ie. terminating the contract.

 

[surreal1221]

I completely agree with everything you say- but would you like to see SKYW on it?

Their pilot group RESOUNDINGLY denounced ALPA or any type of union for a $1 raise.

I really do not want to stir the pot any further. . .but I do recall a rumot from a few weeks (perhaps a month ago) indicating that -900's will be in ASA's fleet structure by December. If I recall correctly, it was 11 of them.

Now, granted ASA is a subsidiary of Skywest Inc., but they are at least ALPA represented and understand the significant benefits associated with having a professional association to protect the group's interest.

I know I know. . .doesn't make what's going on with PNCL any better, but I'd obviously (as an industry professional) would rather see this flying stay with those of us who are represented by a professional association and not some sham-In-house union group that likes $1 raises, and a single pay scale for all of their aircraft.

Nevertheless, we have a lot to learn about this current issue. It wasn't a secret that Delta was looking to downsize their DCI carriers from 8 to 4. We've seen the beginning, and I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it.

 

[H46Bubba]

I was not aware of that. Very interesting. So, do you think this is the plan for the PCL DL flying as well? Pay the company to do no flying? From the original post, it didn't sound that way to me....ie. terminating the contract.

I'm not sure if PNCL can get an injunction. Mesa was able to plead for an injunction because if they didn't get an injunction, they would be in banckruptcy or even worse shut down before the scheduled court date. Pinnacle has money in the bank and is still making a profit with Colgan and it's NWA CPA. I think another reason for Delta terminating the contract with PNCL is because of the stike vote and the labor issues. Delta learned their lesson back in 01 when Comair struck and Delta lost millions in revenue. They know they can't get another ALPA or union carrier to fly struck work.

 

[Seggy]

I really do not want to stir the pot any further. . .but I do recall a rumot from a few weeks (perhaps a month ago) indicating that -900's will be in ASA's fleet structure by December. If I recall correctly, it was 11 of them.

Ahh not going to happen, at least with the PNCL -900s. Those -900s are owned by Pinnacle not Delta. Also you don't make money only operating a small number of aircraft in a complete fleet, even if it is a similar type airplane such as a CRJ

I know I know. . .doesn't make what's going on with PNCL any better, but I'd obviously (as an industry professional) would rather see this flying stay with those of us who are represented by a professional association and not some sham-In-house union group that likes $1 raises, and a single pay scale for all of their aircraft.

It should be flown mainline pilots.

 

[surreal1221]

Well Mark, I for one didn't say it should be flown by regionals. . .did I?

Also, the -900's that are rumored to be coming to ASA in the winter are not the ones currently being flown and owned by Pinnacle. So, no worries there. . .not going to take their birds from them.

I for one, hope that they actually can keep this flying. One way or another. And that any growth that is able to be generated in this damn industry this year, actually occurs.

Our industry is stuck in a phobia of what to do with a bloated price of oil really screwing things up. All of us are waiting for that bubble to pop and for the real world to return so that our costumers (and us) can actually make a living and enjoy life again.

 

[Getburned]

I thought I've heard on here before that the -900's are Delta's; and that Pinnacle is just paying the lease on them and that is why they got the CPA in the first place. I could be totally wrong.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Well you heard wrong.... no offense I hope!

Perhaps there should be a common misconceptions thread and include WHO owns the -900s under the DCI banner operated by Pinnacle.... that way we don't get thread after thread with that as a debate subject.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Well you heard wrong.... no offense I hope!

Perhaps there should be a common misconceptions thread and include WHO owns the -900s under the DCI banner operated by Pinnacle.... that way we don't get thread after thread with that as a debate subject.

Chill Beavis, I dont think it was much a debate as him going "whoa, I thought Delta owned those...guess not"

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Chill Beavis, I dont think it was much a debate as him going "whoa, I thought Delta owned those...guess not"

Chill? Did I sound like I was riled up about it? It was a comment. I suppose if I did, well then my bad!:hiya:

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Chill? Did I sound like I was riled up about it? It was a comment. I suppose if I did, well then my bad!:hiya:

Little bit, but no harm no foul. Its hard to "hear" people's tone on the internets...

 

[kellwolf]

Skywest has already been given this replacement flying.

Source, or is this more pure, wild speculation? If it's from the crew room, it doesn't count, BTW....

I always wondered this. . .and I suppose I could find it. . .but where exactly is this -900 going?

Who knows? There currently isn't any other flying. Best I can think is begging NWA to use their 1-for-1 clause to replace 16 -200s with -900s. In the end, that's not gonna help the potential furloughs and displacements.

Can Delta do this? They signed a contract, we havent violated any terms of agreement, have we? Can they just cancel an ASA whenever they feel like? Its not like they have BK protection anymore. it will be interesting.

According to Delta, we DID violate terms of the contract. They state the reason they're canceling is b/c of poor on-time arrival performance. Now, my question is who draws up the schedules? From the way I understand it, Delta makes the schedule, hands it to PNCL and says "Make it work with airplanes and flying." Now, if they hand us an unrealistic schedule, then there's not much we can do. From the press release, it sounds like that's what was happening, and Pinnacle management voiced their concerns over it. If that is indeed true, I'd say we've got a good shot at winning in court. Same holds true with Mesa and Delta canceling their flights, then crying foul over poor completion factor. If this is Delta's way of shedding long term regional contracts, it's pretty damn unethical. Now, if we said "Yes, Delta. We can do it, Delta. Whatever you say, Delta" KNOWING that the schedules were unrealistic, not only are we gonna lose the Delta flying, but we should be losing our upper management team that agreed to all of that.

Because of our ASA with NW, they cant fly into our hubs. I think thats pretty standard in the industry. The -900s are based in ATL and they fly to Houston (dont know if its IAH or Hobby), St Croix, a couple others. Kellwolf might be able to fill you in on the rest.

Yeah, and they had JUST given us ATL-NAS, too. Go figure. They were adding new destinations right up to the point they said, "BTW, you're outta Delta Connection on July 31st." We CAN do ATL-MEM in the -900. NWA gave us a waiver so we could get the -900 to and from MEM for MX, at least that's my understanding. We fly into IAH for NWA and HOU from ATL. As for everything else, I'm just as in the dark as everyone else is. I'd like to hear some straight talk and info from our management, but I haven't heard jack yet.

Per the shedule bulletin from last Friday, there are no PNCL -900 lines after July 31st.

Any increase in Comair, Skywest or Freedom flying the -900s or are they just letting the routes drop? I kinda have a feeling things like ATL-RIC and ATL-HOU probably weren't doing too well anyway.

I think another reason for Delta terminating the contract with PNCL is because of the stike vote and the labor issues. Delta learned their lesson back in 01 when Comair struck and Delta lost millions in revenue. They know they can't get another ALPA or union carrier to fly struck work.

That issue could be resolved QUICKLY, though. I'd almost rather them be dropping us for that instead of some performance issues. Honestly, I don't think we had the flying long enough to establish a baseline performance anyway, and I'd hope that gets argued in the inevitable court battle. If it's b/c we don't have a contract, that can be taken care of in a matter of a week or so. All they gotta do is sign on the dotted line.

 

[H46Bubba]

According to Delta, we DID violate terms of the contract. They state the reason they're canceling is b/c of poor on-time arrival performance. Now, my question is who draws up the schedules? From the way I understand it, Delta makes the schedule, hands it to PNCL and says "Make it work with airplanes and flying." Now, if they hand us an unrealistic schedule, then there's not much we can do. From the press release, it sounds like that's what was happening, and Pinnacle management voiced their concerns over it. If that is indeed true, I'd say we've got a good shot at winning in court. Same holds true with Mesa and Delta canceling their flights, then crying foul over poor completion factor. If this is Delta's way of shedding long term regional contracts, it's pretty damn unethical. Now, if we said "Yes, Delta. We can do it, Delta. Whatever you say, Delta" KNOWING that the schedules were unrealistic, not only are we gonna lose the Delta flying, but we should be losing our upper management team that agreed to all of that.

But every DCI carrier operates that way. Delta gives us the lines and we fill in the a/c and crew lines and make it happen. How does NWA schedule you guys? Well I guess that will be a moot point since it will transfer over to the Delta scheduling system. Delta either swaps slots or will cancel our flight, when the weather acts up and they need to get the mainline flights out. Delta runs the show in ATL and JFK. We are at their whim as to getting us out or in. They take care of their flights first even for mx.

Any increase in Comair, Skywest or Freedom flying the -900s or are they just letting the routes drop? I kinda have a feeling things like ATL-RIC and ATL-HOU probably weren't doing too well anyway.

I'll have to wait till this weeks bulletin comes out on Friday. I'll give an update as to who will take over the ATL lines you guys were flying. They're not going to let the routes drop unless it's a back door way to cut domestic service due to high fule prices. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Cptnchia]

They're not going to let the routes drop unless it's a back door way to cut domestic service due to high fule prices. We'll just have to wait and see.

I think you just found the golden nugget of truth. This is potentially a cheaper way to cut domestic service. If they reduce the mainline block hours, then they have to reduce DCI block hours. If you cut just DCI block hours, you don't have to mess with your mainline employees and the attendant costs associated with that. It's a hard truth, but I don't think that DL is finished terminating DCI contracts.

 

[Polar742]

I think you just found the golden nugget of truth. This is potentially a cheaper way to cut domestic service. If they reduce the mainline block hours, then they have to reduce DCI block hours. If you cut just DCI block hours, you don't have to mess with your mainline employees and the attendant costs associated with that. It's a hard truth, but I don't think that DL is finished terminating DCI contracts.

Following that logic train, that could lead to more larger gauge equipment across the board. Getting rid of hourly flights from OMA-LGA on small jets and a once or twice a day service on a 757....hmmm. Next thing you know, a price increase will stick.

Maybe they're betting on no new startups for a bit with high oil and dried up VC. Maybe the RJ's were just "place holders" to keep a brand active in certain markets that they wouldn't traditionally be used in. Perhaps, even into a competitor's hub, no?

Then again, with DL and NWA merging, what DOWNLINE affect will this have on PCL?

Best of Luck

 

[SmitteyB]

I really don't understand WHY DAL would do this.

I mean look at ASA- perenial dead last carrier in on-time performance. They didn't cancel their contract. I wish DAL and SKYW would get out of bed together.

PNCL is major feed for NWA (DAL). Why piss off you most important feed on the NWA side?

This directly affects us Colganites, too. We shouldn't be sitting pretty- this is a big deal.

 

[kellwolf]

But every DCI carrier operates that way. Delta gives us the lines and we fill in the a/c and crew lines and make it happen. How does NWA schedule you guys? Well I guess that will be a moot point since it will transfer over to the Delta scheduling system. Delta either swaps slots or will cancel our flight, when the weather acts up and they need to get the mainline flights out. Delta runs the show in ATL and JFK. We are at their whim as to getting us out or in. They take care of their flights first even for mx.

That's how NWA does it, too. What I think the issue was in the block hour scheduling. For example, I wondered how a CRJ-900 flying from Atlanta to St Croix had LESS flying time than the E170 that Shuttle previous had flying on it. I also wonder if a lot of the on-time arrival hits were due to ATC delays (ie holding going into ATL on a clear day) or WX issues. Be kinda crappy to cancel a contract over stuff we had no control over.

I think Delta canceling the flights like you describe is exactly what Mesa is saying happened. At first I thought JO might be crying unfairly, but now I'm not so sure.....

Then again, with DL and NWA merging, what DOWNLINE affect will this have on PCL?

That's the million dollar question everyone is afraid to ask. With a 99% completion rate and a 96% on-time rate over the last couple of month, I don't think they can claim "performance issues" as long as we keep that up.