Checkride Trickery..

"Has everybody missed that the guy asked the student to do a DME arc with incredibly non standard phrasing?"

First of all, the OP only speaks to a radial outbound and then a radial inbound. So, yeah, I guess I missed the DME arc thing....

"I used to do this in ONT weekly off the Mission VOR..."

Secondly, there is no Mission VOR in SoCal.

Thirdly, Merit is EMO when it comes to this sort of question. He'd have 10 pages on the frequency modulation of an outer marker.

Which leads me to.....

why did I click on this......
 
Eww, that's scary! Positive control is not a substitution for situational awareness at all. Just ask American about that one.

Admittedly, the feds were peeved that even though my commercial applicants could read, understand and speak ATC standard English, they didn't have the ability to "read, speak, understand and immediately comply with a non-standard verbal command without repeating from air traffic control".

Must....resist.....degrading...to....ghetto....vernacular....and....saying... "Fo reals, yo?" to the inspector! :)
 
when else would you really need to intercept a certain radial at a 90-degree angle? The DME arc is the only case I can think of, although I never learned how to do DMC arcs until I joined the military; it's not on the PTS these days, is it? But I don't really think that's what the examiner instructed the applicant to do anyway.

While I'm thinking about it, a fairly tricky task they give you in AF pilot training is called the "fix-to-fix". You're flying around on, say, the XYZ R-090 at 30 DME and are told to fly present position direct to the XYZ R-360 at 60 DME (that's an easy example, BTW), by solely using your HSI/bearing pointer. It's one of those SA exercises; you failed the task if you didn't arrive within 3 miles of the "fix" you're cleared to--lots of guys bust for that particular task.
 
DME arcs are still taught.

Fix to fix IS NOT taught anymore. This got dropped AT LEAST 10 years ago, though I've been shown the whole concept when I was in ground at a 135 company.
 
DME arcs are still taught.

Fix to fix IS NOT taught anymore. This got dropped AT LEAST 10 years ago, though I've been shown the whole concept when I was in ground at a 135 company.

So, how would you proceed direct to an IAF that is defined by a radial/DME?
 
While I'm thinking about it, a fairly tricky task they give you in AF pilot training is called the "fix-to-fix". You're flying around on, say, the XYZ R-090 at 30 DME and are told to fly present position direct to the XYZ R-360 at 60 DME (that's an easy example, BTW), by solely using your HSI/bearing pointer. It's one of those SA exercises; you failed the task if you didn't arrive within 3 miles of the "fix" you're cleared to--lots of guys bust for that particular task.
Ever since I sat next to a hawtie AF chickie in the back of an AA "Super 80" and she told me they taught this, I've always wanted to know how to do it.

Something you can explain via PM?

-mini
 
There's a lot more I could say here, but to say I'm shocked and amazed at people's responses when it comes to non-radar, slant alpha flying is an understatement. I don't think some of ya'll have flown in a non radar environment without GPS in the last decade, to be quite frank.

You say that because of this discussion of how to get from one radial to another??

Knowing (and being above) an MSA, ESA, MEA, MOCA, etc is what keeps you from planting yourself in terrain while maneuvering in a non-radar environment when you're not on an approach.

It has nothing to do with any of the techniques for finding another radial discussed in this thread.
 
"Has everybody missed that the guy asked the student to do a DME arc with incredibly non standard phrasing?"

First of all, the OP only speaks to a radial outbound and then a radial inbound. So, yeah, I guess I missed the DME arc thing....

"I used to do this in ONT weekly off the Mission VOR..."

Secondly, there is no Mission VOR in SoCal.

Thirdly, Merit is EMO when it comes to this sort of question. He'd have 10 pages on the frequency modulation of an outer marker.

Which leads me to.....

why did I click on this......

Hi Donny,

How are you? I should've said the POM VOR. Mission.. Silly me.

Not really sure what EMO is.

I could've started a thread saying "How do I become a UPS 757 captain?". Then you would've dived right in.. ;)
 
Ever since I sat next to a hawtie AF chickie in the back of an AA "Super 80" and she told me they taught this, I've always wanted to know how to do it.

Something you can explain via PM?

-mini

Rather than trying to provide a bastardized explanation, here's what our Instrument Manual says:



7.10. Proceeding Direct to a VOR/DME or TACAN Fix. To proceed direct from one fix
to another is often required during departures, approaches, or when maneuvering in a
terminal area. Bearing and range information from a VOR/DME or TACAN facility is
sufficient for navigating direct to any fix within reception range. The following are some
techniques to accomplish a fix-to-fix (Figure 7.13):
7.10.1. Tune. Tune the TACAN or VOR/DME equipment (VOR and DME stations
must be collocated).
7.10.2. Turn. If not proceeding in the general direction of the desired fix, turn to a
heading approximately halfway between the head of the bearing pointer and the radial on
which the desired fix is located. The objective is to turn in the general direction of the
desired fix rather than fly away from the fix while attempting to determine a precise
heading.
7.10.2.1. HSI. When using an HSI, the desired radial should be set in the course
selector window and the aircraft turned to a heading between the head of the bearing
pointer and the head of the course arrow.
7.10.2.2. Initial Turn. The initial turn may be adjusted to roll out on a heading other
than halfway between the bearing pointer and the desired fix and present location. If
the range must be decreased, roll out on a heading closer to the bearing pointer. To
increase the range, roll out on a heading closer to the desired radial.
7.10.3. Visualize. Visualize the aircraft position and the desired fix on the compass card
of an RMI or similar instrument. The following factors must be understood when
visually establishing the aircraft position and the desired fix on the compass card.
7.10.3.1. Station Location. The station is located at the center of the compass card,
and the compass rose simulates the radials around the station.


AFMAN 11-217V1 3 JANUARY 2005 127
7.10.3.2. Aircraft Position. The aircraft position is visualized along the reciprocal
(radial) of the bearing pointer.
7.10.3.3. Fix. The fix with the greater range is established at the outer edge of the
compass card. The fix with the lesser range is visualized at a point that is
proportional to the distance represented by the outer edge of the compass card.
7.10.4. Determine Heading. Determine a precise heading from the aircraft position to
the desired fix. Determine the heading to the fix by connecting the aircraft position to
desired fix with an imaginary line. Establish another line in the same direction, parallel
to the original line through the center of the compass card. This will establish a no-wind
heading to the desired fix.
7.10.5. Adjust Heading. Adjust aircraft heading as necessary and proceed to the fix.
7.10.5.1. Drift. Apply any known wind drift correction. The effect of wind drift and
any inaccuracy of the initial solution may be compensated for by repeating the
previous steps while en route. As the aircraft approaches the desired fix, adjust the
heading as necessary to intercept the arc or radial or to comply with route clearance
beyond the fix.
7.10.5.2. Distance. The distance to the desired fix can be estimated since the
distance between the aircraft position and the desired fix is proportionate to the
distance established from the center to outer edge of the compass card.
7.10.6. Update. Update heading continuously enroute to refine your solution and correct
for winds.
7.10.6.1. NOTE: The same problem can be easily and more accurately solved on the
CPU/26A computer. This is done on the wind face by imagining that the center
grommet is the station and applying the same basic techniques as in 7.10.3 though
7.10.5 above.
 
Hi Donny,

How are you? I should've said the POM VOR. Mission.. Silly me.

Not really sure what EMO is.

I could've started a thread saying "How do I become a UPS 757 captain?". Then you would've dived right in.. ;)

Thirdly, Merit is EMO when it comes to this sort of question. He'd have 10 pages on the frequency modulation of an outer marker.

Which leads me to.....

why did I click on this......

Alright, I'm feeling friendly this morning so I'll play "ref".

Now you two are "even".

Next shot across the bow gets the user-be-good stick.
 
Weren't we just talking about a checkride maneuver? How did we get into this argument about arcs, non-radar flying, and who has a bigger belt buckle.

Man, oh man.
 
Which is exactly what you do when you do a DME arc, no?

There's a lot more I could say here, but to say I'm shocked and amazed at people's responses when it comes to non-radar, slant alpha flying is an understatement. I don't think some of ya'll have flown in a non radar environment without GPS in the last decade, to be quite frank.
Jtrain, I think you're getting too defensive, nothing against your way of thinking because for all practical purposes you are making valid points, however, not applicable to the original objective.

The shortest distance would not be an arc. It's been established, and no arguing about that fact.

Which is exactly what you do when you do a DME arc, no?
True, you spin the OBS when arcing. However, what has been suggested was that if you wanted to maintain SA while on a given heading all you need is keep the needle centered (no change in heading, constant heading) and you'll know exactly what radial you're currently on.
To make things simple, think about when you get a vector to an arc. You can maintain SA on your current position relative to the station by centering up the needle continuously. That's all there is to it, really, and I know you that.
 
So, how would you proceed direct to an IAF that is defined by a radial/DME?

You can't, not without a GPS to get you there. If that's the case then you've gotta fly the full procedure. As I said, fix to fix isn't taught anymore.

I know, it's different in the military. A few years ago we had these discussions with MikeD and he said, "The hell you can't do this!" and what he does in the military is not what is performed on the civilian side of flying these days.

I know that 10-20 years ago in the civilian world fix to fix wasn't a big deal, but there's a reason if you're flying around in the states and you hear Northwest say, "Sorry sir, unable direct," it's because they never put FMS units in those things and they can't navigate direct to a fix on their own. They're "radar vector equipped," if you will.
 
This thread shows that this particular task may have been a little more complicated than we might have thought for this particular student.

From the little information given, I would have turned to a heading that would have given me a 90 degree intercept angle on the radial inbound.

The task was to give a turn that would have the applicant established on the radial the fastest right?:confused:
 
So what you are saying is that without GPS, your average instrument pilot cannot proceed direct to an ICAO fix?

That is really, really sad.

To me, that is a basic skill, just as important as being able to hold or fly a non-precision approach.
 
However, I make sure my instrument students can do this before we ever get into the airplane. I give them 3 seconds to choose a heading to intercept the radial inbound or outbound, and whether it's a right or left turn. If they can't do that, they're not thinking about it properly.

I don't view this as situational awareness, it's more of "do you understand the VOR." If a pilot relies on situational awareness to decide how to intercept a radial, then he's not using the VOR to its full potential.

Concur. Most people don't have a complete grasp of how to use VORs.

I was asked to perform a similar task on my private checkride; the DE asked me what heading I'd fly to intercept a certain radial inbound, and being able to spout off an answer with a quick spin of the OBS knob showed him I knew what he was after.

And the thing was, it wasn't something my CFI taught me (or even knew, as it turned out), but the result of having read an article I found on these here interwebs a long while back. It's the best explanation of how to fully use a VOR I've come across yet.
 
So what you are saying is that without GPS, your average instrument pilot cannot proceed direct to an ICAO fix?

That is really, really sad.

To me, that is a basic skill, just as important as being able to hold or fly a non-precision approach.
Yeah, fix-to-fix nav isn't in any civilian instrument training manual I've ever seen--FAA-produced or otherwise.
 
Back
Top