Checkride Trickery..

I'm still not seeing any sort of "trickery" in this story.

So the DE asked your buddy to do something he wasn't expecting. Then, when he didn't know what to do in a timely fashion, they talked about it on the ground afterward. It did not have any impact on his checkride.

Still trying to see where this is a problem.
 
minitour said:
It's pretty darned accurate though. Unless you've already done something in the first three seconds and now you've put yourself 3 seconds away from disaster.

The point of the post is to think about what you're going to do instead of just doing something to do it. That's never a good thing.

-mini
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I see this going the way most of our disagreements go.....but it's different as a flight instuctor or Captain.
I just had a co-pilot put me in a situation that if I waited three seconds to do something I wouldn't be typing right now.
 
It seems like a fair challenge that if situationally aware, should be easy. It reminds me of the tear drop VOR approaches that are prevalent down in Mexico. The direction to turn is obviously published, but turn the wrong direction and into a mountain you go.
 
Has everybody missed that the guy asked the student to do a DME arc with incredibly non standard phrasing?

That's all the student had to do.
 
mikecweb said:
I see this going the way most of our disagreements go.....but it's different as a flight instuctor or Captain.
I just had a co-pilot put me in a situation that if I waited three seconds to do something I wouldn't be typing right now.
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Someone owes you a beers!
 
Goldmember said:
"I am not an instrument student yet but I think the ability to use the VOR is pretty important even as a private pilot. I don't want to be dependent on GPS."

--Why not? Before GPS, we were dependent on VOR. Before VOR, we were dependent on NDBs. Plus GPS is an amazing tool. What's funny is that in a few years, we'll all be saying "well we have to learn GPS just in case the (insert really cool thing we haven't even thought of yet) goes out."
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I am not saying GPS is not amazing. It is getting even better with the addition of WAAS. But just because it is the latest and greatest does not mean we should stop learning other methods of navigation.

What happens if the pretty little screen that drew me a line home happens to go out? I want to be just as capable of getting home using a VOR. If I get lost, I like knowing that I can use two VOR's to locate where I am and where I need to go.

Plus, I think it's fun. :rawk:
 
jtrain609 said:
Has everybody missed that the guy asked the student to do a DME arc with incredibly non standard phrasing?

That's all the student had to do.
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What DME arc was he maintaining than? What distance?

Nothing about this suggests it has anything to do with a DME arc, just turning the "shortest distance". Not very descriptive in hinting towards any likes of an approach procedure.
 
After reading the 3rd post...this isn't really that big of a deal. He just wanted to see to if the applicant would turn left and intercept the radial inbound. The examiner could have just said, "...intercept the 40 degree radial inbound..." and it'd be no big thing. It should be a given that you would do it in the shortest direction of turn. IMO, very fair instruction.

I would not use a DME arc to do it. That makes no sense and I don't believe it's what the examiner asked for nor what ATC would want if so cleared.
 
Turning "the shortest distance to intercept the X radial inbound" would put you inside the current DME distance.

No way was he trying to get him to do a DME arc.
 
jtrain609 said:
Are you serious? Do I need to draw a picture?
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I see your point but nowhere in the instructions was the applicant told to intercept an arc. He was simply asked to turn the shortest distance to intercept and track a radial inbound. He could've intercepted the inbound radial via a DME arc by using his exact DME from the VOR but for a new instrument pilot, under the hood, with an examiner next to him? I doubt he had the collective ability to even consider doing an arc.
 
Flying outbound on the 270, "turn the shortest distance to intercept the 315 radial inbound".

I drew a picture :p
 

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By noting your DME, you could turn right and arc to the radial to track inbound although I think that may counter the idea of the "shortest distance". I think that's all Train is saying.
 
B767Driver said:
After reading the 3rd post...this isn't really that big of a deal. He just wanted to see to if the applicant would turn left and intercept the radial inbound. The examiner could have just said, "...intercept the 40 degree radial inbound..." and it'd be no big thing. It should be a given that you would do it in the shortest direction of turn. IMO, very fair instruction.

I would not use a DME arc to do it. That makes no sense and I don't believe it's what the examiner asked for nor what ATC would want if so cleared.
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I'd certainly do an arc to it. It's the most straightforward way to do what the examiner wants while maintaining your situational awareness.

I dunno about you, but I have this thing about always having positive identification of where I'm at. Call me crazy, but as soon as the CDI goes full deflection, I have no idea where I'm at (unless you have a GPS with a moving map, which still isn't good enough in the FAA's eyes for knowing your exact position). So you arc over to it, and track it inbound.

To tell somebody, in the soup, to simply turn to a heading without any lateral guidance is a great way to find yourself smack dab in the side of a mountain. In a Cessna 172 flying /A you have no idea what the winds are, what kind of correction you need to put in, and most importantly what's between you and this mythical point in space out there that you're recommending dead reckoning to.

That's just me, though, and how I would perform the maneuver. I honestly believe to teach anything else is to invite the student to think that this is a safe course of action, and perform this maneuver you're describing in the soup with terrain around them. That's a recipe for disaster, in my opinion.
 
Clocks said:
An arc wouldn't be the shortest distance.
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Nope, but doing what you just described is a great way to run into something.

Believe me, I used to think the way you drew that picture, being that I learned how to fly in the flat lands. The first night I saw a trainee turn directly towards a mountain after turning the wrong direction on a procedure turn, I changed my tune. Having absolute, 100% positive identification of your location at all times is paramount to flying in the soup, especially when you don't have a GPS with terrain in the database.

If you do an arc, at least you can peep your sectional and make sure you're not gonna nail anything between you and the point you're trying to get to, and you maintain your situational awareness at all times instead of saying, "Well, I'm somewhere between A and B." In fact, don't most examiners bust on that very thing? You go full deflection on an instrument ride in most situations without having any of where you are seems like a good way to get a pink slip, procedure turns and holds being the exception.
 
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