Checkride Trickery..

M

meritflyer

Well-Known Member
I had a call from an old PPL student of mine who just took his instrument ride.

He passed but, the DE was pretty harsh on him about one thing in particular. The DE instructed him to intercept and track a radial outbound. No issues there. Then the DE told him to turn the shortest distance to intercept and track a radial back inbound.

From a situational awareness point of view, I can see why the DE wanted his to actually have the student think about where he was and which way to turn but I just found it somewhat irrelevant in a few respects. My old student did it fine but was criticized heavily on the ground for how long it took him to think about it.

Just a thought...
 
Perhaps my brain is a little fried. . .but what?

The DE had him intercept and track a radial outbound (Okay. . .I'm still tracking).

Then, turn the shortest distance to track A radial back inbound?

Uh. . .what?

I don't know, I'm confused by the whole "shortest distance portion"

Say he was tracking the 180 radial outbound. Which way would he turn to get to the closest radial to fly inbound? We talking 271 or 089? I don't know man. . .I'm so ####ing confused by this. . .maybe my reading comprehension is ####. And couldn't he just turn 180 degrees around, center the course, and tell him what radial he was now on? A 180 turn is a 180 turn.
 
surreal1221 said:
Say he was tracking the 180 radial outbound. Which way would he turn to get to the closest radial to fly inbound? We talking 271 or 089? I don't know man. . .I'm so ####ing confused by this. . .maybe my reading comprehension is ####.
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The scenario the DE gave was similar to this..

He was tracking the 085 outbound. He then said, turn the "shortest distance" (maybe in degrees?) to intercept the the 040 inbound.
 
So....he was flying (for example) the 090 radial outbound and the DPE said "turn the shortest distance to the 060 radial inbound" and he took some time to think about it before turning?

Sounds like a good call to me. Nothing that happens in the next three seconds will kill you, but what you do in the next three seconds could kill you.


-mini
 
Sounds like a standard situational awareness thing to me. If it took him longer than 10 seconds to figure it out, he probably wasn't aware for one reason or another. Jitters?
 
meritflyer said:
From a situational awareness point of view, I can see why the DE wanted his to actually have the student think about where he was and which way to turn but I just found it somewhat irrelevant in a few respects.
Click to expand...

For a checkride task, that's pretty demanding. I don't think many instrument or -II candidates could do this reliably. I know I couldn't as an instrument student.

However, I make sure my instrument students can do this before we ever get into the airplane. I give them 3 seconds to choose a heading to intercept the radial inbound or outbound, and whether it's a right or left turn. If they can't do that, they're not thinking about it properly.

I don't view this as situational awareness, it's more of "do you understand the VOR." If a pilot relies on situational awareness to decide how to intercept a radial, then he's not using the VOR to its full potential.

It's an incredibly useful skill.
 
Half of the thinking time was probably "where the hell did THAT one come from?!?"

Would ATC ever need this?
Would an emergency require this?

"The shortest distance" would require some mental trigonometry or something.
 
PTS TASK.....? :confused:

Of course the DPE could figure out a way to say it fits generally, but it seems interesting. Maybe the E just wanted to confirm that he felt safe in giving this particular applicant a handshake... Guess you can't fault him on it that way if the E was just considering the safety of the applicant.
 
I am not an instrument student yet but I think the ability to use the VOR is pretty important even as a private pilot. I don't want to be dependent on GPS.

Would the correct answer for this be a left turn to a heading of 240 tracking inbound on the 60 degree radial?
 
First, it sounds like someone thinks he knows better than the PTS.
The shortest distance is going to be 90 degrees off the new radial. In the example given, if he was on 085 outbound and needed to be 040 inbound, he should turn to 310. I'm guessing he just wants to make sure he turns the right direction and intercepts at a steep angle. I've never thought of this before and probably wouldn't have figured the math in the air, especially if he said "turn the shortest distance". You can't turn a distance.
 
Classic case of DPE going bonkers! ...

or a great case of telephone!!

ever play that as a kid? I did.

DPE->STUDENT->INSTRUCTOR->THREAD->READER

Some DPEs forget that their supposed to be testing applicants, not throwing them for loop!
 
"I am not an instrument student yet but I think the ability to use the VOR is pretty important even as a private pilot. I don't want to be dependent on GPS."

--Why not? Before GPS, we were dependent on VOR. Before VOR, we were dependent on NDBs. Plus GPS is an amazing tool. What's funny is that in a few years, we'll all be saying "well we have to learn GPS just in case the (insert really cool thing we haven't even thought of yet) goes out."
 
Goldmember said:
"I am not an instrument student yet but I think the ability to use the VOR is pretty important even as a private pilot. I don't want to be dependent on GPS."

--Why not? Before GPS, we were dependent on VOR. Before VOR, we were dependent on NDBs. Plus GPS is an amazing tool. What's funny is that in a few years, we'll all be saying "well we have to learn GPS just in case the (insert really cool thing we haven't even thought of yet) goes out."
Click to expand...

I see where the original poster is coming from. GPS can *appear* simple. Direct, enter, enter right? ;)

The schools of thought will change (although some people don't want them to) as technology and aviation change.
 
Goldmember said:
"I am not an instrument student yet but I think the ability to use the VOR is pretty important even as a private pilot. I don't want to be dependent on GPS."

--Why not? Before GPS, we were dependent on VOR. Before VOR, we were dependent on NDBs. Plus GPS is an amazing tool. What's funny is that in a few years, we'll all be saying "well we have to learn GPS just in case the (insert really cool thing we haven't even thought of yet) goes out."
Click to expand...

I have plenty of time where I had none of the above; good ole fashoned map and compass!
 
mikecweb said:
I wouldn't live by that.....
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It's pretty darned accurate though. Unless you've already done something in the first three seconds and now you've put yourself 3 seconds away from disaster.

The point of the post is to think about what you're going to do instead of just doing something to do it. That's never a good thing.

-mini
 
Ever see the gps accuracy go to crap while you're flying?
Seen it a couple times around here.
I was doing a hold on BLD and the GPS showed me on the Arizona side of Hoover Dam.

:::cough:::Janet:::cough:::
 
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