Tail wheel endorsement question

Matt13C

Matt13C

Well-Known Member
I flew into Van Sant airport today to do some grass landings. It was awesome! There was a J-3 and a Stearman flying around the pattern and they really looked fun to fly. No doors, or even a roof in the case of the Stearman and the Stearmans radial engine sounds excellent.

I told the lady I was interested in getting my tail wheel and she asked how many hours I have. I told her around 60 and she suggested I get more time in tricycle before going for the tail wheel. Why does that matter? Don't people learn from zero time in tail wheels?

Other than wanting to protect her aircraft, which I completely understand, is there any reason to get more time?
 
Matt13C said:
I flew into Van Sant airport today to do some grass landings. It was awesome! There was a J-3 and a Stearman flying around the pattern and they really looked fun to fly. No doors, or even a roof in the case of the Stearman and the Stearmans radial engine sounds excellent.

I told the lady I was interested in getting my tail wheel and she asked how many hours I have. I told her around 60 and she suggested I get more time in tricycle before going for the tail wheel. Why does that matter? Don't people learn from zero time in tail wheels?

Other than wanting to protect her aircraft, which I completely understand, is there any reason to get more time?
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The Cessna 172 is a tri, no?
 
I decided to try and earn my tailwheel as a reward for passing my CFI ride. I had 500+ hours, a brand new CFI, and I just knew I was "Sierra Hotel". The first time I put the power on that Taylorcraft L-2 I was humbled as we quickly shot from one side of the runway to the other. Four hours later I had the sign off but it was some of the most demanding (and fun) training I've done. Conventional gear aircraft are tricky on the ground because they like to swap ends then throw in pushing forward on takeoff roll and things get really interesting. If you find a willing and skillful CFI I don't see a problem but gaining a little more experience isn't a bad idea either. In the mean time pick up a copy of Stick and Rudder, you'll be glad you did.
 
esa17 said:
I decided to try and earn my tailwheel as a reward for passing my CFI ride. I had 500+ hours, a brand new CFI, and I just knew I was "Sierra Hotel". The first time I put the power on that Taylorcraft L-2 I was humbled as we quickly shot from one side of the runway to the other. Four hours later I had the sign off but it was some of the most demanding (and fun) training I've done. Conventional gear aircraft are tricky on the ground because they like to swap ends then throw in pushing forward on takeoff roll and things get really interesting. If you find a willing and skillful CFI I don't see a problem but gaining a little more experience isn't a bad idea either. In the mean time pick up a copy of Stick and Rudder, you'll be glad you did.
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Great book, I actually read it before I started flight training.

I was actually thinking the opposite. Being very inexperienced, I am less likely to have developed habits.

I know it will be a steep learning curve though. From everything I have read the control surfaces have much more authority than on a Cessna. They also have much less dihedral so it will demand more concentration as it will not right itself. Throw in the whole ground loop possibility and it sounds like an excellent challenge to undertake! :nana2::rawk:
 
Hey man definately get the tailwheel endorsement. I bought a little Luscombe 8a when I had 40 hrs of total time. The insurance company made me do 15 hrs dual before I could fly it solo. They are a little tricky at first but very fun to fly. By the way you will have a new meaning to what the rudder is. Also you have to use brakes on takeoffs and landings in ways that you havent used them in tri gear airplanes. In my situation the luscombe only had brakes on my side of the airplane. Looking back on It I can only imagine how nervous my instructor was for that first few hrs. Special situations like this may lead to some instructors telling you to get more experiance before they let you get in their airplanes. However you can find good tailwheels out there to train in and I dont think that you have to necessarily get more experiance to go do this. If anything I think the stick and rudder skills it will teach you will be valuable to your development. Good luck and let us know if you get it!

Matthew
 
Matt13C said:
I told the lady I was interested in getting my tail wheel and she asked how many hours I have. I told her around 60 and she suggested I get more time in tricycle before going for the tail wheel. Why does that matter? Don't people learn from zero time in tail wheels?

Other than wanting to protect her aircraft, which I completely understand, is there any reason to get more time?
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There's still a lot to be learned about "finesse" after 60 hours in a tricycle gear plane.

Tailwheel takeoffs and landings are no different than tricycle aircraft except that tailwheels are very unforgiving of less than ideal technique which, I hate to say it, is what most 60 hour tricycle gear pilots have, simply because they aren't forced to be perfect.

All of the things you can get away with in a tricycle...landing with a little side load, landing a little flat, landing with a little extra speed, etc. that seem like no big deal...will cause big problems in a tailwheel.

But to answer your original question, I'd say the reason is that she doesn't want 60 hour pilots to get upset with her when it takes them 15 hours to get an endorsement when they thought they could do it in 5 or 6. Also, it's significantly more work and risk for the instructor who teaches low time pilots tailwheel stuff. It's much easier to teach it to pilots who have a good foundation in tricyle gear aircraft.

My advice? Go get really good at normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings in a tricycle gear plane. And when I say "really good" I mean, every landing is a smooth, full stall landing, dead on centerline (including the rollout after landing), with no sideloading, every time, regardless of the wind, gustiness, or turbulence. As for the takeoffs, keep the nosewheel perfectly on the centerline and use correct crosswind controls.

When you feel really confident in those skills, go back and get your tailwheel endorsement. If they still look at you funny, offer to take one of them around the pattern a few times to prove you know what you're doing and see what they say then.
 
jrh said:
There's still a lot to be learned about "finesse" after 60 hours in a tricycle gear plane.

Tailwheel takeoffs and landings are no different than tricycle aircraft except that tailwheels are very unforgiving of less than ideal technique which, I hate to say it, is what most 60 hour tricycle gear pilots have, simply because they aren't forced to be perfect.

All of the things you can get away with in a tricycle...landing with a little side load, landing a little flat, landing with a little extra speed, etc. that seem like no big deal...will cause big problems in a tailwheel.

But to answer your original question, I'd say the reason is that she doesn't want 60 hour pilots to get upset with her when it takes them 15 hours to get an endorsement when they thought they could do it in 5 or 6. Also, it's significantly more work and risk for the instructor who teaches low time pilots tailwheel stuff. It's much easier to teach it to pilots who have a good foundation in tricyle gear aircraft.

My advice? Go get really good at normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings in a tricycle gear plane. And when I say "really good" I mean, every landing is a smooth, full stall landing, dead on centerline (including the rollout after landing), with no sideloading, every time, regardless of the wind, gustiness, or turbulence. As for the takeoffs, keep the nosewheel perfectly on the centerline and use correct crosswind controls.

When you feel really confident in those skills, go back and get your tailwheel endorsement. If they still look at you funny, offer to take one of them around the pattern a few times to prove you know what you're doing and see what they say then.
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Makes sense. I would not really care if it took me 15 hours to get the endorsement. But it does make more sense to go in with a solid base of skills to make the transition easier. The runway is uphill with a slight left lean, that will be tricky enough. Coming down too fast, off line or slightly sideways could certainly make things interesting.

Thanks
 
I know people who learned in a taildragger from hour zero, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be done. The hard part is finding a good tailwheel instructor. Learned properly, flying tailwheel makes you a better stick-and-rudder pilot--you can tell who learned in conventional gear airplanes by the way they handle crosswinds.
 
I have it and haven't flown in one for years, yet apply what I learned every day on the job.

I miss it, did mine in a super cub.

Have a coworker with a 185 can't wait to go out and brush off the rust.
 
germb747 said:
I know people who learned in a taildragger from hour zero, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be done. The hard part is finding a good tailwheel instructor. Learned properly, flying tailwheel makes you a better stick-and-rudder pilot--you can tell who learned in conventional gear airplanes by the way they handle crosswinds.
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:yeahthat: anyone who tells you otherwise has no clue.
 
It would be my opinion that starting training from "0" hours in a Cub, Champ, Citabria, etc would be easier than starting in a trike, then transitioning to a tailwheel. You would learn the aircraft control and rudder usage from the start. This is just my opinion and I would love to hear instructers points of view. Keep in mind, they used to use Stearmans as the initial trainer in WW2, then on to a BT-13, and then T-6 (which I have heard is significantly more difficult and less forgiving than the fighters you would then move to). Point being, these are all challenging taildraggers and you would make this progression over the space of 150 hours or so. This would tell me that initial in a taildragger is not an impossible task.
 
I've flown a bunch of the older PT and L airplanes, and it always makes me wonder what Mr. Cessna is thinking! They all fly so much nicer (although often slower) than their more modern equivalents. 60 hours is more than enough time to stop playing with those silly training wheels on the front!
 
WacoFan said:
starting training from "0" hours in a Cub, Champ, Citabria, etc ...would learn the aircraft control and rudder usage from the start.
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You can be every bit as proficient pilot training in a trike as opposed to a tailwheel, but it does take a more demanding instructor. If you have instructors who aren't anal about rudder usage, directional control, and full-stall landings, then flying a tailwheel would *force* the pilot to fly properly.

Just because an airplane will allow you to use sloppy technique doesn't mean you have to take advantage of it.
 
WacoFan said:
It would be my opinion that starting training from "0" hours in a Cub, Champ, Citabria, etc would be easier than starting in a trike, then transitioning to a tailwheel. You would learn the aircraft control and rudder usage from the start. This is just my opinion and I would love to hear instructers points of view. Keep in mind, they used to use Stearmans as the initial trainer in WW2, then on to a BT-13, and then T-6 (which I have heard is significantly more difficult and less forgiving than the fighters you would then move to). Point being, these are all challenging taildraggers and you would make this progression over the space of 150 hours or so. This would tell me that initial in a taildragger is not an impossible task.
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The old saying went "Once you have about 500 hours in the mustang, you're ready for the AT-6"

In the navy you went from the Stearman or the N3N to the SNJ and then into the Corsair in around 100 hours. Barely taming the 600hp SNJ and then going to the 2000 horsepower Corsair made for a lot of training accidents.
 
I think you should just go for it. I have mine, yes it is different and you haven't flown until you do it in a tail, but lets be real. People used to do it back in the day in 6 hours or less when that was all they had, you can learn to do it and you'll be rewarded. I suggest The Compleat Tail Wheel pilot, and yes that's exactly how it is spelled. Great book simple read and very throughout, a must before you start flying it will make the learning faster.
 
I teach tailwheel in Super Cubs and I can tell you that it is very much easier to teach someone whom has a clue about how to fly already, then train them for the endorsement. Teaching is hard enough, let alone when you have a big guy in front of you, where you can't see anything, and you have to come out of your belts to try and point things out. Is it impossible? No. But it all depends on where you are learning to fly. Small town airport, or one of the busiest GA airports in the country.

Yes pilots used to learn in tailwheel years ago. But most had no radio and they did not have to land behind a Citation X or a G-V. Oh yeah, and they weren't landing on a paved surface. Landing in the dirt makes everyone look like a rock star. Then you try to do wheel landings again on a paved runway, and all goes to hell. Also the training accidents back then were absolutely staggering in numbers that would cause a media uproar today.

Most people can learn to tame the tailwheel. As long as you have your private already done, great, come on out.

With my school it is a minimum of 8 hours to get an endorsement. Most people take between 12-15. And there is a major difference between learning in a decathalon versus a Super Cub. Both are a blast to fly equally. But the Decathalon is alot easier to handle on the ground. The Cub can bite you.

My advice to you would be to find a school that teaches tailwheel, day in and day out on regular runways and on dirt and grass strips. Learn it all.

You will completely understand what the rudder is for, adverse aileron roll, etc... And no matter what plane you fly after that, you will have great cross wind technique... Good luck and remember "quick feet, not heavy feet"... You will understand this soon enough.
 
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