surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Well I'm glad you didn't say Skywest Inc. and lump ASA into that bunch.
But nevertheless . . .
Skywest/union
- Thread starter gtpilot
- Start date
Well I'm glad you didn't say Skywest Inc. and lump ASA into that bunch.
But nevertheless . . .
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything except for the last comparison, which is totally incorrect.
Funny you mention southwest, though. I just got off a southwest flight and when the captain askwd me how things were at skywest, I told him e were about to become the most hated airline in the country. he replied "thank god someone I finally taking that title away from us!"
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
haha come on now Josh..... ASA is different!
DV8Pilot
DPE
GoJets was never a scapegoat for TSA, they are an alter-ego; different ball game there.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
very true....
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
I'm sure they do. The comparison of them to the Xjet/CHQ, USAir/RAH, and delta/SW (??) "situations" is not valid at all, though.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
haha. . .Glad it's that way.
Better stay that way.
I have a great thread idea for when I get home.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
No, I'm [almost] completely agreeing with you. It's just that in none of the situations you listed were the "scapegoated" pilots really deserving of such...except for Gojets. That's all I was saying.
flymo
Well-Known Member
I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!
Hootie
Old Skool
Someone told me once that "pilots are the worlds smartest, dumb people".
If you can't sell item XYZ for more than you are paying for it you will lose money. This isn't about pilots this is about $$. Nobody gives a flying rats behind about what a pilot or what a flight attendant or a ramper makes. If brain surgery was as simple as changing your cars oil then brain surgeons would make the same amount as a jiffy lube mechanic. The truth is you can go from zero hours to RJ fo in less time than it takes to go to community college and learn how to make tool and dye parts for John Deere. Why does Alex Rodriguez get paid 26 million a year, because you and me and the public has decided that is what he is worth for his skillz. The flying public has decided that they do not want to pay more than $750 round trip for leisure travel and thus we as pilots will not make a dime more than what it takes to keep us from taking up another profesion at more importantly keep the company profitable. We all want to make more money but the problem is that there are too many pilots in the industry and at the same time it is too easy to attract and train new pilots.
So now that the simple supply and demand lesson is over......my 2 cents
-SKYW will most likely buy XJT (I wish they wouldn't).
-CAL ROYALLY screwed over XJT and really are the devil.
-There is no way the companies will merge.
-A couple of captains I have flown with have told me stories of how hostile XJT 600 hour ATP wonders were towards them when they were Bro'ing it down in Houston.
-XJT is going to furlough regardless of what happens.
-Keep Skywest my Skywest, if we wanted to live in Newark or Detroit we would have applied elsewhere.
If you can't sell item XYZ for more than you are paying for it you will lose money. This isn't about pilots this is about $$. Nobody gives a flying rats behind about what a pilot or what a flight attendant or a ramper makes. If brain surgery was as simple as changing your cars oil then brain surgeons would make the same amount as a jiffy lube mechanic. The truth is you can go from zero hours to RJ fo in less time than it takes to go to community college and learn how to make tool and dye parts for John Deere. Why does Alex Rodriguez get paid 26 million a year, because you and me and the public has decided that is what he is worth for his skillz. The flying public has decided that they do not want to pay more than $750 round trip for leisure travel and thus we as pilots will not make a dime more than what it takes to keep us from taking up another profesion at more importantly keep the company profitable. We all want to make more money but the problem is that there are too many pilots in the industry and at the same time it is too easy to attract and train new pilots.
So now that the simple supply and demand lesson is over......my 2 cents
-SKYW will most likely buy XJT (I wish they wouldn't).
-CAL ROYALLY screwed over XJT and really are the devil.
-There is no way the companies will merge.
-A couple of captains I have flown with have told me stories of how hostile XJT 600 hour ATP wonders were towards them when they were Bro'ing it down in Houston.
-XJT is going to furlough regardless of what happens.
-Keep Skywest my Skywest, if we wanted to live in Newark or Detroit we would have applied elsewhere.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I've been meaning to throw this up, finally dug it out. This is public information, and is what Skywest wants taken out of the contract. Once this is done, they have told us very plainly that they will furlough 800.
----
This letter will confirm the commitments and obligations of ExpressJet Holdings, Inc. and XJT
Holdings, Inc. (hereinafter referred to as “Holdings”) with respect to any and all flying
performed by Holdings or any of its affiliates utilizing aircraft greater than 19 passenger seats
and whose pilots are covered by the Railway Labor Act (“RLA”).
Holdings and the Air Line Pilots Association (“Association” or “ALPA”) agree as follows:
1. Any and all flying performed by or for Holdings or any affiliate of Holdings pursuant to a
code sharing agreement, capacity purchase agreement, special prorate agreement or
similar agreement (“Code Share Agreement”) between Continental Airlines, Inc.
(“Continental”) and Holdings or any of its affiliates utilizing aircraft with greater than 19
passenger seats will be performed by ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. (“ExpressJet” or
“Company”) under the terms of the Agreement between ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. and
ALPA dated December 1, 2004 (“Agreement”).
2. If Holdings creates or establishes an air carrier, including through an existing or new
affiliate, Holdings will ensure that this air carrier recognizes ALPA as the representative
of its pilots consistent with the RLA, that the air carrier adopts a collective bargaining
agreement identical to the Agreement and that all flying by or for the air carrier will be
performed by pilots on the ExpressJet Pilot Seniority List (the “Pilots’ Seniority List”).
Filling of vacancy and displacement rights for such pilots at the new air carrier will be
established by mutual agreement between ALPA, ExpressJet and the new air carrier,
provided that if an agreement is not executed within 30 days from the date the affiliate
was created or established, the parties shall jointly submit outstanding issues on the
filling of vacancies and displacement rights to expedited binding arbitration.3. As a
material and irrevocable condition of entering into an agreement for the acquisition or
control of an air carrier or affiliate of an air carrier that operates pursuant to any Code
Share Agreement providing feed flying for another carrier, Holdings will ensure that,
subsequent to the acquisition:
a. The acquired air carrier does not enter into any new Code Share
Agreement unless the Code Share Agreement(s) in existence at the time
of the acquisition is terminated by the acquired air carrier’s Code Share
Agreement partner;
b. ExpressJet and the acquired air carrier accept and implement an
integrated pilot seniority list produced pursuant to:
i. ALPA Merger Policy, if the pilots of the acquired air carrier are
represented by the Association or
ii. Section 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective
Provisions, if the pilots of the acquired air carrier are not
represented by the Association
for the purpose of the filling of vacancies and establishing displacement
rights between the air carriers, provided that implementation of the
integrated seniority list does not result in substantially greater costs to
either airline;
c. If the acquired air carrier’s pilots are not represented by a labor
organization, the acquired air carrier agrees to the provisions for filling of
vacancies and displacement rights between the air carriers as negotiated
and agreed to by the Association and ExpressJet for pilots at both
airlines, provided that if an agreement is not executed within 30 days
from the date of acquisition of the acquired air carrier, the Association
and ExpressJet shall jointly submit outstanding issues on the filling of
vacancies and displacement rights to expedited binding arbitration;
d. In the event the Association attempts to organize the pilots of an
acquired air carrier whose pilots are not represented by a labor
organization, the acquired air carrier will take a position of neutrality
regarding representation of its pilots and will provide ALPA access to its
pilots for organizing purposes and recognize ALPA as the bargaining
representative pursuant to a certified card check consistent with the RLA;
e. If the acquired air carrier’s pilots are represented by a labor organization
other than the Association, ExpressJet and the acquired air carrier agree
to the provisions for filling of vacancies and displacement rights as
negotiated and agreed to by ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier, ALPA
and the other labor organization; provided that if an agreement is not
executed within 30 days from the date of acquisition of the acquired
carrier, ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier, ALPA and the other labor
organization shall jointly submit outstanding issues on the filling of
vacancies and displacement rights to binding arbitration;
f. If the acquired air carrier’s pilots are represented by the Association,
ExpressJet and the acquired air carrier agree to the provisions for filling
of vacancies and displacement rights negotiated and agreed to by
ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier and ALPA; provided that if an
agreement is not executed within 30 days from the date of acquisition of
the acquired carrier, ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier and ALPA shall
jointly submit outstanding issues on the filling of vacancies and
displacement rights to expedited binding arbitration;
g. No ExpressJet aircraft (including orders and options) shall be transferred
to the acquired air carrier; provided however, if Continental reduces the
number of aircraft flying pursuant to the capacity purchase agreement
between Continental and ExpressJet, that number of aircraft may be
transferred to the acquired air carrier; and,
h. Pending the implementation of the provisions for filling of vacancies and
displacement rights between the air carriers and the integrated pilot
seniority list in paragraphs 3.b.,c.,e. and f., above, no pilot on the
ExpressJet pilot seniority list shall be reduced in status or pay category,
nor shall vacancies be filled at the acquired air carrier that are the result
of a new Code Share Agreement or transferred aircraft permitted in
paragraph 3.a. or g., above.
4. If Holdings acquires an air carrier that does not have a Code Share Agreement and only
operates aircraft lawfully operable in commercial passenger flight operations with
maximum seating capacity in excess of 70 seats, Holdings will merge such air carrier
with ExpressJet pursuant to Section 1.D.3. of the Agreement. However, the merged
agreement referred to in Section 1.D.3.b. of the Agreement may, at the Company’s
option, provide for separate operating divisions with rates of pay, rules and working
conditions for each of the pre-acquisition operations. The rates of pay, rules and
working conditions at each division will be those in place at the time of the acquisition.
Further, pursuant to this option, the merged contract will contain provisions for filling of
vacancies and displacement rights between the divisions. The provisions for filling of
vacancies and displacement rights between the divisions and the duration section of the
merged agreement will be determined through mutual agreement between the
Company and the Association. If an agreement is not executed within 30 days from the
date of acquisition of the acquired air carrier, the Association and ExpressJet shall jointly
submit outstanding issues to expedited binding arbitration as provided in Section
1.D.3.b.
5. If Holdings acquires an air carrier that does not have a Code Share Agreement and
operates aircraft lawfully operable in commercial passenger flight operations with
maximum seating capacity of 70 seats or less, such air carrier will be merged with
ExpressJet pursuant to Section 1.D.3.a. through d. of the Agreement.
6. The flying set forth in Section 1 of the Agreement and in this letter comprise any and all
flying that may be performed by Holdings or for any affiliate of Holdings utilizing aircraft
with greater than 19 passenger seats and with pilots who are covered by the RLA.
7. This letter shall be binding upon any successor or assign of Holdings. For purposes of
this paragraph, a successor or assign shall be defined as an entity which acquires all or
substantially all of the assets or equity of Holdings through a single transaction or multi-
step related transactions which close within a 12 month period.
8. No contract or other legally binding commitment involving the transfer of ownership or
control pursuant to a successorship transaction, whether by sale, transfer or lease of
Holdings or substantially all of its assets, will be signed or otherwise entered into by
Holdings unless it is agreed as a material and irrevocable condition of entering into,
concluding and implementing such transaction that the obligations contained in this
letter will be assumed by the successor. Holdings shall give notice of the existence of
this letter to any purchaser, transferee, lessee, or assignee. Such notice shall be in
writing with a copy to the Association, at the time the seller, transferor, or lessor
executes a definitive agreement with respect to a transaction as herein described.
9. In the event of a dispute over the interpretation of this letter, such dispute will be
resolved by final and binding arbitration under the expedited dispute resolution
provisions of Section 1 of the Agreement. The parties specifically recognize and agree,
however, that Holdings is not, and nothing in this letter (including this paragraph)
means or can be construed as meaning that Holdings is or has agreed that it is subject
to the RLA.
10. This letter shall be effective upon execution and shall run concurrently with the
Agreement including any status quo period under the RLA.
----
This letter will confirm the commitments and obligations of ExpressJet Holdings, Inc. and XJT
Holdings, Inc. (hereinafter referred to as “Holdings”) with respect to any and all flying
performed by Holdings or any of its affiliates utilizing aircraft greater than 19 passenger seats
and whose pilots are covered by the Railway Labor Act (“RLA”).
Holdings and the Air Line Pilots Association (“Association” or “ALPA”) agree as follows:
1. Any and all flying performed by or for Holdings or any affiliate of Holdings pursuant to a
code sharing agreement, capacity purchase agreement, special prorate agreement or
similar agreement (“Code Share Agreement”) between Continental Airlines, Inc.
(“Continental”) and Holdings or any of its affiliates utilizing aircraft with greater than 19
passenger seats will be performed by ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. (“ExpressJet” or
“Company”) under the terms of the Agreement between ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. and
ALPA dated December 1, 2004 (“Agreement”).
2. If Holdings creates or establishes an air carrier, including through an existing or new
affiliate, Holdings will ensure that this air carrier recognizes ALPA as the representative
of its pilots consistent with the RLA, that the air carrier adopts a collective bargaining
agreement identical to the Agreement and that all flying by or for the air carrier will be
performed by pilots on the ExpressJet Pilot Seniority List (the “Pilots’ Seniority List”).
Filling of vacancy and displacement rights for such pilots at the new air carrier will be
established by mutual agreement between ALPA, ExpressJet and the new air carrier,
provided that if an agreement is not executed within 30 days from the date the affiliate
was created or established, the parties shall jointly submit outstanding issues on the
filling of vacancies and displacement rights to expedited binding arbitration.3. As a
material and irrevocable condition of entering into an agreement for the acquisition or
control of an air carrier or affiliate of an air carrier that operates pursuant to any Code
Share Agreement providing feed flying for another carrier, Holdings will ensure that,
subsequent to the acquisition:
a. The acquired air carrier does not enter into any new Code Share
Agreement unless the Code Share Agreement(s) in existence at the time
of the acquisition is terminated by the acquired air carrier’s Code Share
Agreement partner;
b. ExpressJet and the acquired air carrier accept and implement an
integrated pilot seniority list produced pursuant to:
i. ALPA Merger Policy, if the pilots of the acquired air carrier are
represented by the Association or
ii. Section 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective
Provisions, if the pilots of the acquired air carrier are not
represented by the Association
for the purpose of the filling of vacancies and establishing displacement
rights between the air carriers, provided that implementation of the
integrated seniority list does not result in substantially greater costs to
either airline;
c. If the acquired air carrier’s pilots are not represented by a labor
organization, the acquired air carrier agrees to the provisions for filling of
vacancies and displacement rights between the air carriers as negotiated
and agreed to by the Association and ExpressJet for pilots at both
airlines, provided that if an agreement is not executed within 30 days
from the date of acquisition of the acquired air carrier, the Association
and ExpressJet shall jointly submit outstanding issues on the filling of
vacancies and displacement rights to expedited binding arbitration;
d. In the event the Association attempts to organize the pilots of an
acquired air carrier whose pilots are not represented by a labor
organization, the acquired air carrier will take a position of neutrality
regarding representation of its pilots and will provide ALPA access to its
pilots for organizing purposes and recognize ALPA as the bargaining
representative pursuant to a certified card check consistent with the RLA;
e. If the acquired air carrier’s pilots are represented by a labor organization
other than the Association, ExpressJet and the acquired air carrier agree
to the provisions for filling of vacancies and displacement rights as
negotiated and agreed to by ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier, ALPA
and the other labor organization; provided that if an agreement is not
executed within 30 days from the date of acquisition of the acquired
carrier, ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier, ALPA and the other labor
organization shall jointly submit outstanding issues on the filling of
vacancies and displacement rights to binding arbitration;
f. If the acquired air carrier’s pilots are represented by the Association,
ExpressJet and the acquired air carrier agree to the provisions for filling
of vacancies and displacement rights negotiated and agreed to by
ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier and ALPA; provided that if an
agreement is not executed within 30 days from the date of acquisition of
the acquired carrier, ExpressJet, the acquired air carrier and ALPA shall
jointly submit outstanding issues on the filling of vacancies and
displacement rights to expedited binding arbitration;
g. No ExpressJet aircraft (including orders and options) shall be transferred
to the acquired air carrier; provided however, if Continental reduces the
number of aircraft flying pursuant to the capacity purchase agreement
between Continental and ExpressJet, that number of aircraft may be
transferred to the acquired air carrier; and,
h. Pending the implementation of the provisions for filling of vacancies and
displacement rights between the air carriers and the integrated pilot
seniority list in paragraphs 3.b.,c.,e. and f., above, no pilot on the
ExpressJet pilot seniority list shall be reduced in status or pay category,
nor shall vacancies be filled at the acquired air carrier that are the result
of a new Code Share Agreement or transferred aircraft permitted in
paragraph 3.a. or g., above.
4. If Holdings acquires an air carrier that does not have a Code Share Agreement and only
operates aircraft lawfully operable in commercial passenger flight operations with
maximum seating capacity in excess of 70 seats, Holdings will merge such air carrier
with ExpressJet pursuant to Section 1.D.3. of the Agreement. However, the merged
agreement referred to in Section 1.D.3.b. of the Agreement may, at the Company’s
option, provide for separate operating divisions with rates of pay, rules and working
conditions for each of the pre-acquisition operations. The rates of pay, rules and
working conditions at each division will be those in place at the time of the acquisition.
Further, pursuant to this option, the merged contract will contain provisions for filling of
vacancies and displacement rights between the divisions. The provisions for filling of
vacancies and displacement rights between the divisions and the duration section of the
merged agreement will be determined through mutual agreement between the
Company and the Association. If an agreement is not executed within 30 days from the
date of acquisition of the acquired air carrier, the Association and ExpressJet shall jointly
submit outstanding issues to expedited binding arbitration as provided in Section
1.D.3.b.
5. If Holdings acquires an air carrier that does not have a Code Share Agreement and
operates aircraft lawfully operable in commercial passenger flight operations with
maximum seating capacity of 70 seats or less, such air carrier will be merged with
ExpressJet pursuant to Section 1.D.3.a. through d. of the Agreement.
6. The flying set forth in Section 1 of the Agreement and in this letter comprise any and all
flying that may be performed by Holdings or for any affiliate of Holdings utilizing aircraft
with greater than 19 passenger seats and with pilots who are covered by the RLA.
7. This letter shall be binding upon any successor or assign of Holdings. For purposes of
this paragraph, a successor or assign shall be defined as an entity which acquires all or
substantially all of the assets or equity of Holdings through a single transaction or multi-
step related transactions which close within a 12 month period.
8. No contract or other legally binding commitment involving the transfer of ownership or
control pursuant to a successorship transaction, whether by sale, transfer or lease of
Holdings or substantially all of its assets, will be signed or otherwise entered into by
Holdings unless it is agreed as a material and irrevocable condition of entering into,
concluding and implementing such transaction that the obligations contained in this
letter will be assumed by the successor. Holdings shall give notice of the existence of
this letter to any purchaser, transferee, lessee, or assignee. Such notice shall be in
writing with a copy to the Association, at the time the seller, transferor, or lessor
executes a definitive agreement with respect to a transaction as herein described.
9. In the event of a dispute over the interpretation of this letter, such dispute will be
resolved by final and binding arbitration under the expedited dispute resolution
provisions of Section 1 of the Agreement. The parties specifically recognize and agree,
however, that Holdings is not, and nothing in this letter (including this paragraph)
means or can be construed as meaning that Holdings is or has agreed that it is subject
to the RLA.
10. This letter shall be effective upon execution and shall run concurrently with the
Agreement including any status quo period under the RLA.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
With that logic John, over time, there won't be any pilot group to piss off. . .it'll all be *poof* gone.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
With that logic John, over time, there won't be any pilot group to piss off. . .it'll all be *poof* gone.
Management has gotta learn somehow.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
Most of the XJT guys I really feel for and I really think most if not all but a couple have a good head on their shoulders but this is just more of the same from a small group of that pilot group. So quick to blame other regionals. IM pretty sure its not CHQ and Colgans fault that this is happening to you guys. The blame lies in CALs decision to chop you up and give all your flying to different regionals. I know CAL has bent you guys over pretty bad over there but I never hear any of your types place any blame anywhere but on other regionals. CAL is your issue not us, SKYW, or Colgan. If CAL wouldn't have given your flying away you wouldn't be flying any branded operations, you would still be making money hand over fist and you wouldn't be getting taken over by SKYW. Stop saying everyone is undercutting you and ruining your "perfect regional" and get to the root of the problem which is obviously CAL.
I really feel for your group over there and I know a good amount of stand up guys in that group. Its terrible that this is happening to you guys and really do wish you all the best. Just had to get that off my shoulders.