jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
No psych test here! I walked into the interview, showed them my resume and they said, "Oh wow, you meet the minimums!?" After that they checked my pulse, shook my hand and sent me to the wiz quiz.
National Seniority List? A first step....
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
- Start date
No psych test here! I walked into the interview, showed them my resume and they said, "Oh wow, you meet the minimums!?" After that they checked my pulse, shook my hand and sent me to the wiz quiz.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
I'm in favor of organization for the good of all and a fan of ALPA because they were my first union (who doesn't fondly remember their first). If ALPA were to say "so sorry" to me (after my ALPA job went away) just because the only carrier that would give me the time of day had a pilot group that is Teamsters represented, I would gladly show them my UNION card. An attitude like that would indicate that apparently it isn't good enough just to be in a union, you need to be ALPA. Good luck getting 100% percent support on this. The other representation won't like it one bit and yes, they do have a say in it. ALPA can't go it alone on the NSL issue and shunning the others will hurt the cause.
Minnesota_Flyer
New Member
Once again, a thread about a national seniority list proving conclusively why there will never be a national seniority list. It's . . . . it's just so . . . beautiful. :SNIFF:
(In all seriousness, though, PCL, that longevity proposal seems like a pretty good idea.)
(In all seriousness, though, PCL, that longevity proposal seems like a pretty good idea.)
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
There isn't any other feasible criteria. Besides, it would be an ALPA benefit, sort of the same way as jumpseating began.
VELOCIPEDE POWERS ACTIVATE!
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
I find it interesting that my previous 9 years of 121 flying would not account for longevity for pay, as I was previous IBT. Right there is a deal killer.
If you want to do it off a 121 or 135 date, fine. It can be proven thru training records. Trust me, I'd much rather be at 10 yr pay instead of first.
Everyone looks at it from a furlough perspective. How about a hiring perspective? Would someone who voluntarily leaves a company be entitled to longevity pay?
Say someone like myself, who'd be 10yrs up the payscale. I leave and apply at a new company. The person sitting next to me only has 2 yrs of "national longevity". Which one is gong to get the job? The one that will cost the company 120k a year or the one that will cost 40k?
Which leads to:
An un-desirable side-effect would be pilots are stuck. Say a pilot gets hired at PSA in down cycle, spends 15 years there, and finally, can get 15 yr pay at DL. Won't happen. That pilot won't even get a call.
Think of the downward pressure placed on payscales. MGT will not pay a FNG the top-of-scale rate.
[/incoherent ramble]
If you want to do it off a 121 or 135 date, fine. It can be proven thru training records. Trust me, I'd much rather be at 10 yr pay instead of first.
Everyone looks at it from a furlough perspective. How about a hiring perspective? Would someone who voluntarily leaves a company be entitled to longevity pay?
Say someone like myself, who'd be 10yrs up the payscale. I leave and apply at a new company. The person sitting next to me only has 2 yrs of "national longevity". Which one is gong to get the job? The one that will cost the company 120k a year or the one that will cost 40k?
Which leads to:
An un-desirable side-effect would be pilots are stuck. Say a pilot gets hired at PSA in down cycle, spends 15 years there, and finally, can get 15 yr pay at DL. Won't happen. That pilot won't even get a call.
Think of the downward pressure placed on payscales. MGT will not pay a FNG the top-of-scale rate.
[/incoherent ramble]
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
One Union, One Voice. . .ALPA.
That won't work. Every other industry that has a national list is based specificall on their union (IBEW etc).
Right now everyone starts at zero anyway. Military guys aren't given any credit for their prior time. Additionally, as much as they hate to admit it, they don't have a clue how 121 ops work, so 5 years of military flying doesn't equate to 5 years of line flying part 121.
Additionally, non Alpa shops wouldn't be considered because it's a union negotiated benefit.
Look at the electrical workers (IBEW). A guy who works 10 years at a non union shop doesn't get a day's credit if he decides to go to IBEW. He joins IBEW and he's starting over from day one. Same thing happens to a guy who did electrical work in the military or anyone else.
This also puts national pressure on non union pilots to reconsider whether they want to remain non union, as it's another union given benefit.
Trying to say how many ATPs there are and compare to ALPA membership is a joke anyway. There are a lot of ATPs who are either retired or never went into an airline to begin with. There are a large number of ATP holders who got it just to get it.
Also keep in mind: If this is an ALPA negotiated benefit, they are doing it based on what's best for the membership. There's no reason for ALPA to consider the opinions of those who aren't members. It's as if you said ALPA couldn't provide furlough pay because IBT doesn't (it's not relevent if they do or not, this is an example). It's an ALPA benefit being talked about, not an IBT one.
I think if you were going to get anything from mgmt, it'd be a sliding type scale. Basically, you'd get partial credit based on experience. So you wouldn't start over at the bottom, but wouldn't get your 10 year pay at a new company.
For something like this to work, it'd also need clauses in the contracts requiring the company to hire any applicants who are ALPA members in good standing before non union members.
This will also be decried as "not fair!" but that's how the successful nationalized unions work. Current members *HAVE* to be put ahead of non members for the system to work. It's not about being "fair" to everyone who flies an airplane. It's about being the best for union members.
I have not heard a single good reason for ALPA to give credit to non union members in this scheme. It doesn't put them in any worse of a position than they are now, just gives a benefit to the ones who are members. I know that there are a lot of members of the entitlement generation here, but life isn't fair and just becuase someone else gets something doesn't mean it's automatically *your's* too.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Hey if ALPA carriers start doing this, nobody has to like it, it's something that ALPA carriers are going to do. If this gets going, and you don't like it because you didn't work at an ALPA carrier then tough nuts, guys.
Pilots are not a big happy family who want to take care of each other, this thread proves as much. Why in the world would ALPA say, "Hey, we know that you haven't funded this proposal at all, but we're nice guys and we want to help you out!"
Further it'll never be good enough for everybody, but any other system than what we have today would beat out what we've got.
Pilots are not a big happy family who want to take care of each other, this thread proves as much. Why in the world would ALPA say, "Hey, we know that you haven't funded this proposal at all, but we're nice guys and we want to help you out!"
Further it'll never be good enough for everybody, but any other system than what we have today would beat out what we've got.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
This reminds me of someone I know getting an invitation for dinner recently. She said no thanks, I'm really busy and the answer was "Fine, don't bother!" The inviter didn't care to know why she wouldn't be there.
So, my question mainly is, is it not good enough to be in a union if it's not ALPA? I've been non-union, ALPA, and IBT, so believe me, I've seen all sides of the deal and still like ALPA. I would like to see one representation but that's not the way it is, folks. It seems like some people think that if you're not ALPA you're not union. That would be so sad.
So, my question mainly is, is it not good enough to be in a union if it's not ALPA? I've been non-union, ALPA, and IBT, so believe me, I've seen all sides of the deal and still like ALPA. I would like to see one representation but that's not the way it is, folks. It seems like some people think that if you're not ALPA you're not union. That would be so sad.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Management would fight the heck out of this. It would just cost them too much money.
NJA_Capt
Well-Known Member
Who exactly awarded ALPA the right to give credit in the first place.
IBEW???
If a surgeon changes hospitals does he start over at as an intern?
If a lawyer changes practices does he start over as a paralegal?
You (ALPA) guys are looking at this as if ALPA is and will be the final authority in any future judgments. That opinion is totally one sided. The ONLY way for a national list is for a national union. NOT ALPA TAKES ALL. You are assuming that ALPA will be in charge of the NL. They may be in charge of an ALPA (mini) national list for its own members, but it has nothing to do with THE national list. There will have to be a new overall union. Lets call it the NPA (National Pilot's Association). ALPA has no say in who gets credit. Everyone is acting as if ALPA has been pronounced king daddy union. I wouldn't expect the NPA to "give credit" to anyone regardless of affiliation. Nor does ALPA deserve to self proclaim itself as the governing body.
A national list would be needed to properly integrate all US pilots. It ranks pilots in order of the pilot's first entry into the market as a professional aviator. It has nothing to do with who has been a union pilot and who has not. It has to go back to the initial common ground. The ONLY common ground is the date of the first professional checkride.
These threads are a good example of why the NL will never work. In order to get something you have to be willing to give and compromise. Too many pilots are in it for themselves. We are aviators FIRST and union members SECOND. How many of you would turn in your current union affiliation in order to properly form the NPA?
Don't you really mean what's best for ALPA members? That's really what this is all about.
Current members being put ahead of others is what caused this issue to begin with. To continue with the ALPA first mentality is just another "merging lists" fiasco. The only way to be fair is to "zero out" EVERYBODY. Until EVERYBODY is willing to compromise, nobody will have a true NL.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
"Fair" is a subjective term.
Right now, this framework is only being worked out for the regional carriers. As usual, the mainline MECs think they're too good to worry about this stuff.
E & FA has numbers for just about anything you can imagine. These are analysts and actuaries that lock themselves in the ALPA offices in Herndon for hour after hour five days a week and do absolutely nothing but crunch numbers. You'd be amazed at the data these guys have compiled for just about every situation imaginable.
ALPA can do whatever they want within their own organization. Since this would only apply to ALPA carriers, they don't really need the approval of a bunch of fractional pilots. Just as you would not go to ALPA to ask them for permission to do whatever you want to do on your property.
No thanks. Membership has its privileges. One of the major benefits of such a longevity setup would be the incentive for ALPA membership. Organizing drives would suddenly become a hell of a lot easier if ALPA membership adds the benefit of guaranteed longevity across company lines.
Well at the very least this thread will separate those who know the difference between longevity and seniority and those that don't
In other words, USAPA pilots will be thoroughly confused.
They aren't developing an NSL, they're developing an ALPA longevity list based on ALPA number. As I've said many times before, an NSL is impossible since some pilots are ALPA, some are independent unions, and some are non-union. ALPA can only control what happens within ALPA. What outside unions do is their own business, and ALPA can't negotiate for them.
So, let me get this straight: right now you get absolute nothing for your time in this business if you have to go somewhere else, but this new idea would give you all of your ALPA longevity. It doesn't include all of your commercial experience, but it does include some. Isn't some better than none? You would turn down a deal that gives you some protection (at least enough to keep you off first year pay again) simply because it doesn't give you absolutely everything you want? If that's the case, then it proves that pilots are completely irrational. Pragmatism, my friend. Don't pass up a good deal in a vain hope for a perfect deal that will probably never come. This is why only some pilots make good union leaders. You need to be able to see the big picture and act pragmatically.
Well, it's better than nothing, but it's not really what you should be. And I say that as a former ALPA member and current independent union member. If we are really to advance this profession, we all need to be together under one union.
As Surreal said, "one union, one voice." That's the key to rebuilding our profession in the future.
ALPA has the right to do whatever they choose to do within their own organization, as long as it fits within the confines of the law (as this would). Again, other unions can do whatever they want, but ALPA can set up a longevity list for internal purposes without any outside consultation with other unions. Want to be a part of it? Join THE pilots' union.
A union called the NPA already exists. I'm a member of it. That's who represents the AirTran pilots.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
I'm quite insulted by that retort. I respect your opinion, which is why I sent you a PM to get your point of view on a union issue. I don't appreciate lectures, nor being talked down to. I certainly try not to do either of those to anyone either.
Maybe using myself as an example was a bad idea. Take out the pronoun I and replace it with "A card-carrying union pilot flying 121".
All I'm suggesting is that a seniority list should include any union member 121 pilot. Union members flying pt 121 should be recognized for longevity.
I'm not the only one. There are thousands of people like myself who have been faithful union members and pt 121 pilots for years. They should not be thrown under the bus for a sweetheart deal.
That's pragmatic. Pull everyone up, not just a select few.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
So shouldn't we be calling this master plan or whatever an "ALPA seniority list" not a "national seniority list"? To a lot of people there is a big difference between the two.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It certainly wasn't intended to be insulting. I just don't understand your point of view. Right now you receive absolutely nothing if you leave to go to another ALPA carrier. This plan would give you something, albeit not everything that you want. Is that not a good thing?
I simply disagree. ALPA shouldn't be using resources and leverage to directly benefit pilots that aren't ALPA members. That's a misuse of dues revenue of the pilots that are members of the Association. Membership has its privileges. Want the privileges? Join.
I didn't say it was a national seniority list, I said it was a "first step" on the way towards such. Getting there will take many such steps. The cliche is very true in union work: a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
PCL...just want to understand this. You work for Air Tran, which is not an ALPA carrier, correct? Seriously, trying to understand this. How does that work? They take a percentage of your Air Tran income as well as the NPA?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
If ya wanna get technical, it'd be an "ALPA longevity list," and I agree. National seniority list is a bit misleading.
I like the idea, honestly. And I like the idea that it applies to ALPA. If it goes through, there's a framework in the RLA to oust a current union and vote in another one. The industry as a whole benefits if it's all the same union. IBT has done well for NetJets, but I think even they were talking of getting another union to represent them. IBT hasn't done as well for the 121 carriers.
I like the example Baradium used. You don't go from being in a non-union shop for years and reap the benefits of the union stuff if you happen to land in a union shop 10 years later. This is gonna sound Velo-ish, but it's almost free loading on the union negotiated benefits.
Now, will this actually happen? I'm not too certain of it. There's still plenty of back stabbing and management fights left to go. I can tell ya, the argument of trading pay rates for fewer washouts in training pretty much falls on deaf ears, at least at one certain regional.
Tell that to the Kalitta pilots.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not sure what you're asking here. Do you mean is ALPA taking part of my income? No. I'm not on ACTIVE status with ALPA anymore, since AirTran isn't ALPA, so I pay no ALPA dues. I only pay dues to the NPA. I'm still an ALPA supporter, however, since I believe that all of us being unified under a single union is the only way to improve upon our profession in the long term. I also contribute to ALPA-PAC.
I would be happy to. Have you seen their payrates and work rules? Not something to brag about. ALPA would have done them far better.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
So, then if this "plan" were to become a reality, it wouldn't benefit you in the least? Just seems kind of odd to me. You constantly rail against non-ALPA carriers, but you work for one..??