Class Bravo protection for the carriers!?!?!? (ATL)

JulietBravo

JulietBravo

On Call, On Demand
So I was flying through Atlanta the other day. I was at 9,500 on a course pretty much from Memphis direct to Savannah (I went through KMEM Bravo just before this). I called up approach to request clearance into Bravo just to keep my straight line going. After my request, the controller decided to respond as follows:

"N*****, Roger, I can give you vectors, Bravo is here to protect the carriers."

I knew carriers, of course, airlines. Now, he could have said I can give you vectors or I will direct around the airlines, something down that road. But really, what the hell is with this "Bravo protecting the carriers"!?!?!?!?!? I thought airspace was for everyone! At least deny me access before you tell me that bull! So, I am asking, any controllers, (or pilots) would like to comment on this experience?

(And for the record, I remained calm and responded "No thank you, I'll drop under, have a nice day")
 
JulietBravo said:
So I was flying through Atlanta the other day. I was at 9,500 on a course pretty much from Memphis direct to Savannah (I went through KMEM Bravo just before this). I called up approach to request clearance into Bravo just to keep my straight line going. After my request, the controller decided to respond as follows:

"N*****, Roger, I can give you vectors, Bravo is here to protect the carriers."

I knew carriers, of course, airlines. Now, he could have said I can give you vectors or I will direct around the airlines, something down that road. But really, what the hell is with this "Bravo protecting the carriers"!?!?!?!?!? I thought airspace was for everyone! Pie in the sky theory. At least deny me access before you tell me that bull! See below So, I am asking, any controllers, (or pilots) would like to comment on this experience?

From NUMEROUS websites;
Class B airspace is used around major airports, in a funnel shape that is designed to contain arriving and departing commercial air traffic operating under IFR, up to 10,000 feet (3,000 m) above MSL (12,000 feet above Denver, Colorado). Class C airspace is used around airports and military air bases with a moderate traffic level. Class D is used for smaller airports that have a control tower. The U.S. uses a modified version of the ICAO class C and D airspace, where only radio contact with ATC rather than an ATC clearance is required for VFR operations

Another reason I NEVER clear someone through the Bravo, except in an emergency, mid-shift, etc. is this satement.... Once a pilot receives an air traffic control clearance, they receive separation services I don't normally have time,...sorryfrom other aircraft within the airspace.


(And for the record, I remained calm and responded "No thank you, I'll drop under, have a nice day") Very professional
Click to expand...

This is what you will get from me if you call ATL Approach. "N123 remain outside the Bravo airspace." Major airports do not need every VFR that wants to go direct in the way of thousands of airliners a day. Think Aero Mexico and Cerritos, California. Unfortunately with the amount of traffic it is almost unheard of to get Class B clearance from ATL, also it is probably safer if you stay farther away. :nana2:

Here is one other point. If you look at the ATL Class B map you will see the 3500 foot areas extending to the east and west under what would be the Final approach airspace/courses for ATL. Now yes, it is perfectly legal for you to fly at 3400 under the final, but do you really want to. That is why, if you call me from say, PDK to MCN and want to go at 5500 under a west arrival flow, the first thing I am going to do after giving you a squawk is advise you to maintain at or below 2500. This will give you adequate protection with the hundreds and hundreds of B744's, B763's, B752's, etc. Get my point, you can go at 3400, but do you REALLY want to? Once you get from under the Final I will be happy to clink you to your requested altitude, provided it doesn't conflict with other traffic.

Hope this helps. BTW, I sent you question to ALL of our Union members on our internal e-mail and am waiting to chastise the individual who did this. Love to piss them off:panic: :crazy:
 
ATLTRACON said:
This is what you will get from me if you call ATL Approach. "N123 remain outside the Bravo airspace." Major airports do not need every VFR that wants to go direct in the way of thousands of airliners a day. Think Aero Mexico and Cerritos, California. Unfortunately with the amount of traffic it is almost unheard of to get Class B clearance from ATL, also it is probably safer if you stay farther away. :nana2:

Here is one other point. If you look at the ATL Class B map you will see the 3500 foot areas extending to the east and west under what would be the Final approach airspace/courses for ATL. Now yes, it is perfectly legal for you to fly at 3400 under the final, but do you really want to. That is why, if you call me from say, PDK to MCN and want to go at 5500 under a west arrival flow, the first thing I am going to do after giving you a squawk is advise you to maintain at or below 2500. This will give you adequate protection with the hundreds and hundreds of B744's, B763's, B752's, etc. Get my point, you can go at 3400, but do you REALLY want to? Once you get from under the Final I will be happy to clink you to your requested altitude, provided it doesn't conflict with other traffic.

Hope this helps. BTW, I sent you question to ALL of our Union members on our internal e-mail and am waiting to chastise the individual who did this. Love to piss them off:panic: :crazy:
Click to expand...

Well, I don't wanna start anything by pissing them off :rolleyes:... and I completely understand why Bravo is there and at airports like ATL, you can't deal with any additional traffic. I just thought I'd give it a shot because I listened to a few frequencies and didn't hear much traffic. Plus, I enjoy talking to people while going through large traffic areas. However, the only reason why I'm really ranting is just because I heard the protection from the carriers over the radio. I know I'm over reacting, but it just kind of upset me to hear that broadcasted especially when the airlines have been complaining about GA and everything. I'm not very upset, I've just never heard that mentality from a controller. But I just dropped down to 7500 and stayed below the 8000 rings, not a real big deal. (Just a slower GS ;))
 
Wouldn't MEM to SAV pretty much take you DIRECTLY OVER THE TOP OF THE BUSIEST AIRPORT IN THE WORLD? Maybe this is why he was trying to give you vectors. If you thought you were going to fly directly, or very close to directly, over the top of the busiest airport in the world maybe he didn't think you had a clue. Just a thought.:panic:
 
No we weren't directly overhead. And if we would have been, I wouldn't have even done that, we were far south. Our path took us through the southern edge of the rings. The closest we got was KCCO, right on the corner of the 5000 base portion. Other than that, it was just the outer rings. I just figured we were going right into a STAR or DP, so I felt more comfortable going underneath anyways just so I wasn't being a pain. O well, no harm, no foul. I just wanted to get a controllers perspective on things because the only things I hear come from other pilots. I want to hear what's on the other side of the fence. :rolleyes:
 
same here near the lax apch corridor. depending on the cloud layers the carriers fly the pattern anywhere from 2,500 to 4,500 and without any bravo the whole thing would be a mess - socal def does try their best to accomodate...imho...
 
I don't know why you have taken so much offense to this. They are busy enough keeping the airliners seperated, they have the right to tell you to hit the road and not enter their airspace. It seems like he was more than willing to help accomodate you by helping you around the airspace.

How long have you been flying?

Here is a direct quote from the AIM. 3-3-3

Aircraft not landing or departing the primary airport may obtain an ATC clearance to transit the Class B airspace when traffic conditions permit and provided the requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.131 are met. Such VFR aircraft are encouraged, to the extent possible, to operate at altitudes above or below the Class B airspace or transit through established VFR corridors. Pilots operating in VFR corridors are urged to use frequency 122.750 MHz for the exchange of aircraft position information.
Click to expand...
 
ya i didn't really mean it in a literal sense. should have used a diff word.

it was mostly sarcasm sorry!

(REMOVED PREVIOUS REMARK)
 
ATLTRACON said:
Wouldn't MEM to SAV pretty much take you DIRECTLY OVER THE TOP OF THE BUSIEST AIRPORT IN THE WORLD? Maybe this is why he was trying to give you vectors. If you thought you were going to fly directly, or very close to directly, over the top of the busiest airport in the world maybe he didn't think you had a clue. Just a thought.:panic:
Click to expand...

Actually, the few times I have been cleared through Atlanta's class B it was on a N-S route right over the airport. (thanks)
 
Maybe showing my ATC ignorance here... wouldn't it be better if the aircraft was routed directly over the airport? I mean, not many arrivals/departures conflicts at 5,500 ft over ATL. Someone correct me.
 
JulietBravo said:
No we weren't directly overhead. And if we would have been, I wouldn't have even done that, we were far south. Our path took us through the southern edge of the rings. The closest we got was KCCO, right on the corner of the 5000 base portion. Other than that, it was just the outer rings. I just figured we were going right into a STAR or DP, so I felt more comfortable going underneath anyways just so I wasn't being a pain. O well, no harm, no foul. I just wanted to get a controllers perspective on things because the only things I hear come from other pilots. I want to hear what's on the other side of the fence. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...


Since I am the controller that talked to you that day, allow me to explain my perspective. If a VFR calls in requesting a bravo clearance, I consider many factors before answering. Did the pilot sound sure of himself, did he indicate a familiarity with the airspace, did he seem to understand the volume of traffic around here, etc. All this comes through in the tone and wording of the request. For example, if you had asked a clearance through the Bravo via tiroe intersection direct SAV, I would have immediately responded "cleared through the bravo as requested". The way you stated your request seemed to indicate that you had no knowledge of the airspace or the traffic volume. From your position where you first called me, had you proceeded direct SAV it would have taken you less than 15 miles from ATL during a departure push and directly through all the westbound and southbound departure lanes at a very unsafe altitude. That was the reason for the unable.

The second comment, bravo protects the air carriers, is true. However, it was an extremely poor attempt on my part to briefly give you a reason for the "unable". I have always attempted to give a reason when I say unable to give the pilot an understanding of the circumstance that caused his request to be denied. I think it may be time to revisit my personal policy if it causes this much angst among those I am supposed to be helping.

If you have reason to fly through the area again, make a stop at FFC. It is just down the road from the A80 tracon. Come pay us a visit. It would be worth your while to see the operation first hand.

chris
 
SkiHigh2002 said:
Maybe showing my ATC ignorance here... wouldn't it be better if the aircraft was routed directly over the airport? I mean, not many arrivals/departures conflicts at 5,500 ft over ATL. Someone correct me.
Click to expand...

We have a corridor that runs north/south over the arrival side of ATL that is used to transition aircraft primarily from the north satellite airports southbound. It can be used in reverse but the only VFR altitude available is 5500. It does get crowded. This is the only place that Bravo clearances are "routinely" issued around ATL.
 
Hey Chris, thanks for stopping in and giving some further perspective. We'd love to have you stop back often and give more insight to your side of the story(s). Pilots & controllers understanding where the other is coming from is muy bueno.

:)
 
chrisatc said:
Since I am the controller that talked to you that day, allow me to explain my perspective. If a VFR calls in requesting a bravo clearance, I consider many factors before answering. Did the pilot sound sure of himself, did he indicate a familiarity with the airspace, did he seem to understand the volume of traffic around here, etc. All this comes through in the tone and wording of the request. For example, if you had asked a clearance through the Bravo via tiroe intersection direct SAV, I would have immediately responded "cleared through the bravo as requested". The way you stated your request seemed to indicate that you had no knowledge of the airspace or the traffic volume. From your position where you first called me, had you proceeded direct SAV it would have taken you less than 15 miles from ATL during a departure push and directly through all the westbound and southbound departure lanes at a very unsafe altitude. That was the reason for the unable.

SLACKER:drool::panic::crazy:

The second comment, bravo protects the air carriers, is true. However, it was an extremely poor attempt on my part to briefly give you a reason for the "unable". I have always attempted to give a reason when I say unable to give the pilot an understanding of the circumstance that caused his request to be denied. I think it may be time to revisit my personal policy if it causes this much angst among those I am supposed to be helping.

If you have reason to fly through the area again, make a stop at FFC. It is just down the road from the A80 tracon. Come pay us a visit. It would be worth your while to see the operation first hand.

chris
Click to expand...
 
SteveC said:
Hey Chris, thanks for stopping in and giving some further perspective. We'd love to have you stop back often and give more insight to your side NO WE WOULD NOT. He's not nice and VERY SARCASTIC :sarcasm:of the story(s). Pilots & controllers understanding where the other is coming from is muy bueno.

:)
Click to expand...
 
chrisatc said:
Since I am the controller that talked to you that day, allow me to explain my perspective. If a VFR calls in requesting a bravo clearance, I consider many factors before answering. Did the pilot sound sure of himself, did he indicate a familiarity with the airspace, did he seem to understand the volume of traffic around here, etc. All this comes through in the tone and wording of the request. For example, if you had asked a clearance through the Bravo via tiroe intersection direct SAV, I would have immediately responded "cleared through the bravo as requested". The way you stated your request seemed to indicate that you had no knowledge of the airspace or the traffic volume. From your position where you first called me, had you proceeded direct SAV it would have taken you less than 15 miles from ATL during a departure push and directly through all the westbound and southbound departure lanes at a very unsafe altitude. That was the reason for the unable.

The second comment, bravo protects the air carriers, is true. However, it was an extremely poor attempt on my part to briefly give you a reason for the "unable". I have always attempted to give a reason when I say unable to give the pilot an understanding of the circumstance that caused his request to be denied. I think it may be time to revisit my personal policy if it causes this much angst among those I am supposed to be helping.

If you have reason to fly through the area again, make a stop at FFC. It is just down the road from the A80 tracon. Come pay us a visit. It would be worth your while to see the operation first hand.

chris
Click to expand...

Chris, thank you very much for commenting on this. I REALLY do appreciate the fact that you came on here and took the time to do so. It's nice to see there is someone else on the other side of the headset. :) I honestly was ready to ask if there was an altitude that would be better to do so, but I figure I can drop down a few thousand and be ok. On the other part, my supervisor was in the right seat and he has the "overall authority" and he didn't want to deal with anything. :banghead: However, I do admit I ranted and I was upset at first, but I do understand. I would have done the same by just saying unable and everything. I do know that ATL is one of the busiest airports in the world and it is a challenge for everyone and you guys do a great job!

I would really like to come down a visit! Unfortunately, I have no free time with this job at the current moment. I will be back near ATL again on Sunday. I know I will definitely be talking with one of you guys and I will do my best to not screw up any of the traffic flow, :laff: seeing that I will be right over downtown. I'll give you guys a heads up though, so don't worry. Thanks again for the much needed input!! (And the Tiroe intersection would have been a perfect waypoint! Too bad I didn't notice it earlier...)
 
SkiHigh2002 said:
Maybe showing my ATC ignorance here... wouldn't it be better if the aircraft was routed directly over the airport? I mean, not many arrivals/departures conflicts at 5,500 ft over ATL. Someone correct me.
Click to expand...

I've been there before going into KSTP, about 4 miles East of MSP. When I go IFR into there, which I usually do when I go into Bravo, they have always directed me "over the top". This may just be a MSP thing because STP is right next door and with the runways, it makes it much easier with traffic congestion!
 
JulietBravo said:
Chris, thank you very much for commenting on this. I REALLY do appreciate the fact that you came on here and took the time to do so. It's nice to see there is someone else on the other side of the headset. :) I honestly was ready to ask if there was an altitude that would be better to do so, but I figure I can drop down a few thousand and be ok. On the other part, my supervisor was in the right seat and he has the "overall authority" and he didn't want to deal with anything. :banghead: However, I do admit I ranted and I was upset at first, but I do understand. I would have done the same by just saying unable and everything. I do know that ATL is one of the busiest airports in the world and it is a challenge for everyone and you guys do a great job!

I would really like to come down a visit! Unfortunately, I have no free time with this job at the current moment. I will be back near ATL again on Sunday. I know I will definitely be talking with one of you guys and I will do my best to not screw up any of the traffic flow, :laff: seeing that I will be right over downtown. I'll give you guys a heads up though, so don't worry. Thanks again for the much needed input!! (And the Tiroe intersection would have been a perfect waypoint! Too bad I didn't notice it earlier...)
Click to expand...

I am glad we could clear up the confusion here. I knew nothing of this forum prior to CJ bringing up your post at work. I like having a place to discuss issues that arise on frequency. Hope you get to visit with us at some point in the not too distant future. Better hurry before we all retire:D
 
chrisatc said:
I am glad we could clear up the confusion here. I knew nothing of this forum prior to CJ bringing up your post at work Hey, DON'T blame me, you're the one who wouldn't let him go through the Bravo:panic::sarcasm:. I like having a place to discuss issues that arise on frequency. Hope you get to visit with us at some point in the not too distant future. Better hurry before we all retire:D
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top