uSAPa begins destruction of USAirways
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
- Start date
Trip7
Well-Known Member
:rotfl:
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Delta is #1 and Continental is #2 in both number of passengers and number of destinations to Europe.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I've got to be up in about 6 hours to take a plane to get painted but...
Up until a January, revenue was reported separately. Almost 80% of the revenue was coming from -east ops. The feed for international hasn't increased THAT much either.
And Airways is probably last as far as Europe destinations go. I know DAL and CAL have more. UAL has to have more, and I think AA flies into Heathrow more then Airways flies across the pond total.
Why would management have any input on an NSL? that's union officiated only....each airline would still keep their own seniority system, so management doesn't have to even get involved in the NSL. the NSL would be a separate seniority system from the airlines altogther and would IMO only be used when a merger comes about to help with integration.
at least that's how i see it working out well for everyone.
Even if the EVP's don't know how to do this, they need to make a Plan A, B, C, D etc and start weeding through them to at least 5 good choices...then go the members for voting and DO something....not doing something is starting to look painful and sitting around not dealing with the situation isn't getting anyone anywhere. Maybe they need a "planner" on board. someone outside of the aviation industry that specifically knows how to put different alternatives together, evaluate, weed and find the best possible approach that give everyone the same amount of pain and comfort.
well, no, i'm not advocating them just jumping to their place in line...they'd be stapled onto the bottom of the list with new ALPA numbers and rise from there. that's only fair.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Ahh, that's much different than what most pilots talk about with NSL ideas. They are usually talking about "guild" style systems where all newhire pilots to all airlines must be hired in seniority order from the master NSL. If you're just talking about an NSL to be used for merger situations, that would be different. Still difficult to do, but different.
Even if the EVP's don't know how to do this, they need to make a Plan A, B, C, D etc and start weeding through them to at least 5 good choices...then go the members for voting and DO something....not doing something is starting to look painful and sitting around not dealing with the situation isn't getting anyone anywhere. Maybe they need a "planner" on board. someone outside of the aviation industry that specifically knows how to put different alternatives together, evaluate, weed and find the best possible approach that give everyone the same amount of pain and comfort.
But you see, that would require them to budge off of their firmly held opinions on seniority, and that's not something that they're willing to do when their seniority is in the balance. Pilots hold on to their ideals of seniority like it's life or death. For the EC to send it out for a vote to the pilots is anathema to them. Each of them would be risking their own ideals on seniority not being accepted by the pilots, and then their seniority as they view it is compromised.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that this is something that needs to be done, but I'm just trying to impart the political realities of how this stuff works behind the scenes. Politically, this sort of thing just isn't possible.
maybe the definition of seniority needs to be redefined such that each pilot understands only one definition and then they can work from there. i don't know why pilots would think seniority has more than one defining point, but then again, i'm not in your shoes.. just looking from an outside POV.
I always dislike when "politics" gets too incorporated and stops everything from rolling along....maybe the solution is to get people in there that want to see this changed and are willing to take action vs letting the politics of it all keep everything screwed up and hands firmly planted with nowhere to go.
I always dislike when "politics" gets too incorporated and stops everything from rolling along....maybe the solution is to get people in there that want to see this changed and are willing to take action vs letting the politics of it all keep everything screwed up and hands firmly planted with nowhere to go.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be hard to just start one and look at it, the month you started paying dues would be where you stood on the list. Once you have the list, albeit useless, you could start playing with it and trying to figure out ways to integrate it. It wouldn't be hard to do and I'm sure some intern could cut and paste it together in a couple days.
It really would make ALPA more powerful and it would take alot of power away from management. Management has us by the short and curlys because they know they can treat us like dirt because our company seniority is so important to us and we aren't going to give that up by going somewhere else. So we just bend over and take it in the name of seniority.
It really would make ALPA more powerful and it would take alot of power away from management. Management has us by the short and curlys because they know they can treat us like dirt because our company seniority is so important to us and we aren't going to give that up by going somewhere else. So we just bend over and take it in the name of seniority.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. If the higher ups at ALPA and so on know that pilot are going to be ticked off no matter what the outcome (and it seems they always are) then why not just implement with a vote? Let them get upset. If they don't vote then the outcome is partially their fault for not being involved. Even when people complain about the outcome, they'll just cry loud for awhile and then grumble in the cockpit but how is that any different from what some of them do now? How is that different than USAPA pilots complaining to jumpseaters about the injustices of ALPA? What I see (IMO) is a lot of complaining but no changing. Why wouldn't that work PCL? Why not just make the change like ripping a band-aid?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Well, technically that list already exists. Your ALPA number is in order of when you achieved "apprentice" status. Every ALPA member from the beginning has their own ALPA number that goes in order, but it doesn't really mean anything as far as seniority right now.
Like I said, it's not just the membership that disagrees on how seniority should work, it's the leadership also. In order for a vote to take place, a majority of the leadership would have to approve it, but a majority of the leadership wouldn't approve it because they don't want to see the members choose a seniority model that they don't like. It's all territorial. Everyone wants to protect their own idea of seniority rather than let democracy do its job.
SoCalAprch
Well-Known Member
Can you admit this is a flaw in the ALPA system?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
No, it's a flaw with any system because it's a flaw that's inherent in people. The Association is designed as good as any organization can be, but people are people, and they come with their inherent flaws.
if you ask me, that really is a serious flaw, one that will never be fixed with the attitude that's there...I wonder what the other unions do and if they have an NSL in place and how they came to the outcome (auto union, chefs union etc)??
simply because it's a flaw in people doesn't mean it can't be overcome. it'll take some pain but after a while, it would become customary just like any other type of change.
that doesn't make sense....if the leadership creates the alternatives for the membership to vote on, then the seniority model(s) would already be approved by leadership. There's more than one alternative that could possibly work and that's what's taken to the membership for voting. it's up to the leadership to create the possible alternatives and then the top 5 rated as "this can work" are taken to membership for voting to weed down to the most preferred all around.
it's the leaderships job to find the best combination by putting all the straws on the table and weeding as they go till they get to a combination of straws that will create the right alternatives to take in front of membership. membership depends on leadership to do what.... LEAD... based on their vast knowledge and experience.
it'd be essentially the same tactic we use when taking new roadways to the public...create a set of purpose and goals, gather information from the membership as to what's most important to them, put together alternatives, take to the membership for comment/data collection...refine and evaluate the alternatives... (from here, it's different)...put together a group of say 5 alternatives that would work in ANY case...take to membership for a vote...most supported alternative of the 5 becomes the preferred and it goes from there. not everyone will be happy, not everyone will be unhappy but it WILL solve the problem.
you wouldn't believe how unhappy people are when they hear there's a new road coming through... but as they go along with the public information process and give their comments, they learn and understand the need for change... by the end, most of them are actually ok with it.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Other unions have NSLs because they started with them. They didn't create them 75 years after the fact. The problem isn't the creation of an NSL, the problem is doing it after 42 different pilot groups already have their own separate seniority lists. If it had been done at ALPA's birth in 1931, it would have been easy, but not easy at all 77 years later.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
OK, my one and only post to cover all this. There will maybe a bit of thread creep or bending, but stay with the story arc. It all comes together.
I started reading this thread because I thought it'd be a silly arm wrestling match like a lot of these "hot topics". I'm thrilled it turned into a viable discussion.
I'm sure the regular readers of JC know by now that I worked for a regional. For 25 years, the sole codeshare of the company was US. When I started we rode around in 28 clapped out t-props. Most of them were 19 seaters, and the minority of the fleet was a dozen 30 seaters. We had ~220 pilots and the top guys made ~60k. When I left, we had over 210 jets, the soon to be majority were of the "jumbo shrimp" variety holding 70-86 people. There were 1800 pilots (we were well short staffed in the pilots too), and top captains were making above 100k. We were never owned, at any point, by any airline.
This occurred prior to me joining: The company wanted to form a union, but were told by ALPA that they weren't big enough for ALPA to represent, so the IBT was voted in.
After I joined, and US was enjoying the short-lived hiring spree of 99/00, our union asked for a flow through. We were told that we weren't real pilots flying real planes. I don't know about you, but hand flying t-props in crap wx all day sounds real to me. Also, the 5 jets we had acquired under the codeshare had a longer average stage length than the 737 fleet, but who am I to judge?
Then things went south. Some group of extremists wrecked up all kinda stuff, and furloughs came. All of a sudden, the group that pulled up the ladder came falling back down. Now, this company that was an inconvenience was now seen as an opportunity to grab jobs.
We were in contract negotiations, and our CEO observed how well the Freedom debacle worked over the Mesa pilots, so he feigned the same operation by starting a sister company. This company was to fly the same equipment and have furloughed US pilots flying the planes. The whipsaw airline was actually going to be represented by ALPA, as was seen in press releases to the fact. Luckily, our MEC didn't allow themselves to get rolled, and created a scope that prevented ANY whipsawing. However, the J4J was part of the deal, as well as some less perfect sections. They did the absolute best they could and ensured there would be jobs to protect in the current round of negotiations.
The intial J4J "offer" was for pilots from a company that never owned us, and never wanted us to flow up, to come back and take seats on airplanes that they voted for us to fly. The ratio was to be 50% CA and FO on the affected equipment. They would have a 1:1 seniority integration with pilots on a seniority list they were never part of. The CA's were to be paid based on DOH and the F/Os would be paid top of scale. The argument that was articulated was "we have families and mortgages to take care of".
We politely declined the offer, but accepted a revised one that allowed 50% of the captain seats and F/O seats, but put them on at the bottom of the list. The alloted amount of CA's came over, but only a handful of F/Os. Like any other group, they were offered an opportunity and accepted it. Most, like any group, were/are great guys. Unfortunately, only a couple strived to use their diverse experience to better the company.
I found it very interesting, that they were not able to extend a helping hand to pull us up the ladder, but they sure were willing to give a boot to the face and push us down the ladder.
This US/HP microcosim gives a definate light to why a national seniority list will not, in my opinion, be able to happen.
First, there are alot of aircarriers with union representaton. You have the obivious ALPA carriers. However, there are other sizable, and/or influential carriers that are not ALPA represented:
ABX, FedEx, UPS, SWA, Horizon, RAH, and American ring off the top of my head. How would a 20 yr FedEx or UPS person with a highly lucrative career with a defined retirement merge in to a 20 yr LCC FO or a 20 yr UAL CA?
Then you have the issue of military mainline and regional guys. From what I have seen, a 5 year mainline guy would think he has a right to be a head of a 20 yr regional guy. This can be evidenced in the AA/AE relationship. Here you have AMR owning 2 airlines, flying jet equipment, and flying the same routes. The lists aren't merged. The trickle up, flush back arrangement displays this. I had a friend who got hired at AMR, never got off OE before being flowed back to AE as a CR7 captain (which at that time took like 15-20 yrs to hold). Naturally, there are arguments the other way as well. A 20 yr. regional captain at say, horizon, makes well into the six figures and is home ALOT. How could you convince this guy that he shouldn't have the ability to maintain that?
How about a military guy? After serving his time, and qualified, forced to the bottom of a list that has a long line of 22&23 yr old pilots ahead? This individual is in his mid-30's and will not have the ability to be hired into a mainline position.
Again, these are just my observations and thoughts. I'm sure many people have differing opinions. This is one of those things where there are so many ways to look at it, all valid opinions and arguments.
I think this is just a contankerous nature of the beast. Seniority is VERY personal. Money comes and goes, as does equipment and routes. Days with your family and the ability to bid what you want, as we all know, is the absolute in this industry.
I hope eveyone keeps perspective. The first real test will be the DAL/NWA folks, and see how they handle it. Is USAPA an aborration or a trend? We'll see.
Keep in good standing and vote.
Have a great weekend, and fly safe.
I started reading this thread because I thought it'd be a silly arm wrestling match like a lot of these "hot topics". I'm thrilled it turned into a viable discussion.
I'm sure the regular readers of JC know by now that I worked for a regional. For 25 years, the sole codeshare of the company was US. When I started we rode around in 28 clapped out t-props. Most of them were 19 seaters, and the minority of the fleet was a dozen 30 seaters. We had ~220 pilots and the top guys made ~60k. When I left, we had over 210 jets, the soon to be majority were of the "jumbo shrimp" variety holding 70-86 people. There were 1800 pilots (we were well short staffed in the pilots too), and top captains were making above 100k. We were never owned, at any point, by any airline.
This occurred prior to me joining: The company wanted to form a union, but were told by ALPA that they weren't big enough for ALPA to represent, so the IBT was voted in.
After I joined, and US was enjoying the short-lived hiring spree of 99/00, our union asked for a flow through. We were told that we weren't real pilots flying real planes. I don't know about you, but hand flying t-props in crap wx all day sounds real to me. Also, the 5 jets we had acquired under the codeshare had a longer average stage length than the 737 fleet, but who am I to judge?
Then things went south. Some group of extremists wrecked up all kinda stuff, and furloughs came. All of a sudden, the group that pulled up the ladder came falling back down. Now, this company that was an inconvenience was now seen as an opportunity to grab jobs.
We were in contract negotiations, and our CEO observed how well the Freedom debacle worked over the Mesa pilots, so he feigned the same operation by starting a sister company. This company was to fly the same equipment and have furloughed US pilots flying the planes. The whipsaw airline was actually going to be represented by ALPA, as was seen in press releases to the fact. Luckily, our MEC didn't allow themselves to get rolled, and created a scope that prevented ANY whipsawing. However, the J4J was part of the deal, as well as some less perfect sections. They did the absolute best they could and ensured there would be jobs to protect in the current round of negotiations.
The intial J4J "offer" was for pilots from a company that never owned us, and never wanted us to flow up, to come back and take seats on airplanes that they voted for us to fly. The ratio was to be 50% CA and FO on the affected equipment. They would have a 1:1 seniority integration with pilots on a seniority list they were never part of. The CA's were to be paid based on DOH and the F/Os would be paid top of scale. The argument that was articulated was "we have families and mortgages to take care of".
We politely declined the offer, but accepted a revised one that allowed 50% of the captain seats and F/O seats, but put them on at the bottom of the list. The alloted amount of CA's came over, but only a handful of F/Os. Like any other group, they were offered an opportunity and accepted it. Most, like any group, were/are great guys. Unfortunately, only a couple strived to use their diverse experience to better the company.
I found it very interesting, that they were not able to extend a helping hand to pull us up the ladder, but they sure were willing to give a boot to the face and push us down the ladder.
This US/HP microcosim gives a definate light to why a national seniority list will not, in my opinion, be able to happen.
First, there are alot of aircarriers with union representaton. You have the obivious ALPA carriers. However, there are other sizable, and/or influential carriers that are not ALPA represented:
ABX, FedEx, UPS, SWA, Horizon, RAH, and American ring off the top of my head. How would a 20 yr FedEx or UPS person with a highly lucrative career with a defined retirement merge in to a 20 yr LCC FO or a 20 yr UAL CA?
Then you have the issue of military mainline and regional guys. From what I have seen, a 5 year mainline guy would think he has a right to be a head of a 20 yr regional guy. This can be evidenced in the AA/AE relationship. Here you have AMR owning 2 airlines, flying jet equipment, and flying the same routes. The lists aren't merged. The trickle up, flush back arrangement displays this. I had a friend who got hired at AMR, never got off OE before being flowed back to AE as a CR7 captain (which at that time took like 15-20 yrs to hold). Naturally, there are arguments the other way as well. A 20 yr. regional captain at say, horizon, makes well into the six figures and is home ALOT. How could you convince this guy that he shouldn't have the ability to maintain that?
How about a military guy? After serving his time, and qualified, forced to the bottom of a list that has a long line of 22&23 yr old pilots ahead? This individual is in his mid-30's and will not have the ability to be hired into a mainline position.
Again, these are just my observations and thoughts. I'm sure many people have differing opinions. This is one of those things where there are so many ways to look at it, all valid opinions and arguments.
I think this is just a contankerous nature of the beast. Seniority is VERY personal. Money comes and goes, as does equipment and routes. Days with your family and the ability to bid what you want, as we all know, is the absolute in this industry.
I hope eveyone keeps perspective. The first real test will be the DAL/NWA folks, and see how they handle it. Is USAPA an aborration or a trend? We'll see.
Keep in good standing and vote.
Have a great weekend, and fly safe.
Bumblebee
Commodore
I know . . . what a great asset to Jetcareers . . . Polar, You are the man.
I'm considering jumpseating across oceans just to meet you
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
I know . . . what a great asset to Jetcareers . . . Polar, You are the man.
I'm considering jumpseating across oceans just to meet you
I appreciate all the ups. Hopefully I'll make it to NJC08 for a day to see Cpt. Haynes, and meet the people that keep me sane sitting hotel reserve.
I live in FL, based in LAX and am able to consume beer in multiple locales.
