I think the Nic award is binding and Parker's already scoffed at re-opening the SLI through section six negoatiations.
Gooooood luck folks.
uSAPa begins destruction of USAirways
- Thread starter SlumTodd_Millionaire
- Start date
I think the Nic award is binding and Parker's already scoffed at re-opening the SLI through section six negoatiations.
Gooooood luck folks.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
Since when has half of a merged pilot group NOT hated each other? Airways will be fine. The grumpy old men will retire in a few years and everyone will get over it. If the issues interrupt business, then management will start dropping a hammer and any court/abritrator will side with them. Airways will fire and rehire if needed or people will leave in droves. Either way, both sides will quit their crying and get on with their lives.
People are making a big deal over this for no reason. The East guys have more numbers anyway, with USAPA, they think they'll be happy and the West side doesn't have the numbers to make more than a ripple. Parker is sitting back and laughing at his pilots acting like children, I bet he couldn't be happier.
I seriously appreciate it. I do.
I'm very upset as well, so imagine how many hectopascals of steaming pressure I have in my cranium attempting to hold it all in and keep it professional and educational for the folks on the sidelines to understand what went down.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You're vastly underestimating the seriousness of this situation. This isn't just some typical merger scuffle. The West pilots will burn the airline to the ground.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
While I used to be pro-USAPA...now I'm very neutral as US Airways is my long term goal.
For some reason I think the East guys feel some sort of entitlement to a high seniority number because the US Airways name is kept, therefore it is their airline.
With that being said- keep in mind the "East" guys built that airline, the european and carribean markets. America West is lucky they were able to merge with US Airways.
And the Easy guys are lucky that America West came in and saved them. It's such a cloudy situation. Reading APC there is RESOUNDING support for USAPA from current ALPA represented pilots. ESPECIALLY FedEx guys.
Prater is going to leave a tarnished legacy.
For some reason I think the East guys feel some sort of entitlement to a high seniority number because the US Airways name is kept, therefore it is their airline.
With that being said- keep in mind the "East" guys built that airline, the european and carribean markets. America West is lucky they were able to merge with US Airways.
And the Easy guys are lucky that America West came in and saved them. It's such a cloudy situation. Reading APC there is RESOUNDING support for USAPA from current ALPA represented pilots. ESPECIALLY FedEx guys.
Prater is going to leave a tarnished legacy.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
America West didn't save US Airways. Hedge fund managers did, along with companies like Republic, Eastshore Holdings, ACE Avaition (Air Canada), etc. The West was just as bad off, if not worse, than the East. The East is where the $$ is made.
But that's beside the point. They both have each other now. If I was with US Airways for 18 years and I was junior to a 4 year old America West guy I'd be pissed as well. I'd feel a bit more entitlement to higher seniority, wouldn't you? It's a tough situation when you have to sit down and figure out "what's fair".
inside0ut
Well-Known Member
And who would they blame if they did that and put themselves out on the street?
I don't understand that mentality.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You should ask some of them about that. You can probably count the number of West pilots that feel "lucky" about the merger on one hand.
You seem to have the same problem as the East pilots: you don't understand the difference between seniority and longevity. If you're an East pilot with 18 years at Airways, you have a lot of longevity, but practically zero seniority. Lists aren't merged based on longevity, they are merged based on seniority.
What you don't understand is that they have nothing to lose. The East pilots are going to use the power of their majority status to rape the West pilots of their seniority and their contract in order to change the Nic award to favor them. What would be left over for the West pilots wouldn't be worth having.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
Well if it weren't for the East, the West guys wouldn't have jobs.
I don't know everything about it, so I'm sure I could use some more education on the subject, but I see why the East guys are so upset.
We have about 5 mainline Airways guys that commute from Ithaca (all Yellow Lanyards) and they just continue to say.. "We took concessions for the company, paid our dues for years and ALPA accepted that seniority list intergration."
You said earlier that its not about longevity, it's about seniority. Isn't seniority directly reliant on longevity? Not necessarily disagreeing with you, just trying to understand.
Does this mean that Colgan's #1 should be #2 on the new PCL list? If they really are merged based on seniority.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
There's no reason to believe that at all. In fact, the opposite is true. USAirways was days away from liquidation, and there is zero evidence that anyone else was interested in bailing out Airways, certainly not purchasing them. The East guys would have been out on the street, and the west could have continued to thrive by picking up the slack where Airways disappeared, possibly even getting some damned good fire-sale prices on Airbii, 737s, and 757s, not to mention gates, hangar space, etc... The East was the one saved in this merger, not the west.
Seniority and longevity are related within a single company, but completely separate when looked at across company lines. Five years of longevity at Continental makes you a 737 Captain, while five years of longevity at American makes you a furloughee. The difference is seniority, although the longevity is the same. In other words, your longevity brings a lot more to the table at one company than it does at another.
Of course not. Again, seniority is a complicated subject that has to be looked at in individual circumstances. That's exactly why ALPA Merger Policy refers to "career expectations" rather than straight DOH or ratio. The #1 pilot at Colgan has a lot of Colgan seniority, but it will never buy him a CRJ Captain slot, because Colgan currently has no expectations of CRJ deliveries. The #2 pilot at Pinnacle, on the other hand, can buy a -900 Captain slot with his seniority. This is exactly why the arbitrator in the AAA/AWA merger gave the AAA pilots the top 500 slots on the new list. The very top AWA Captain got put behind these 500 or so AAA pilots because his seniority at AWA couldn't get him a widebody slot since AWA didn't have widebodies. But of course, you never hear the yellow lanyard crazies talking about how they got the top 500 slots. Doesn't serve their propaganda purposes to remind everyone of that. The Nic award was exceedingly fair. Anyone that reads it objectively will come to that conclusion. The problem is that the East pilots want to steal the rightful seniority rights of the West pilots. You shouldn't sympathize with such selfish desires.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
Serious question, no sarcasm as I know next to nothing about any of this, but why doesn't it make sense to base seniority in a merger based on the hire dates all combined and in order and then slab them all on one master payscale and just give plane assignment based on that? I understand that some guys would get pushed back from larger aircraft and such but isn't that just a casualty of a merger? I know that the east guys are throwing fits about it because of this that and the other, but doesn't it just make sense and isn't it (in a normal world) the easiest solution? I really do just want to know more about this stuff, not trying to insult anyones intelligence.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Why should a senior Captain at AWA get knocked back to FO just because his airline merged with a company that hasn't hired since the '80s? You think that's fair to the AWA pilot? Yes, it would be "easier," but not right.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
So how does the current contract that was mediated work?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The contract wasn't arbitrated, just the seniority list. Both pilot groups are still operating under their old contracts separately. The arbitrator combined the seniority list basically by giving the top 500 slots to the top USAirways pilots since they had the widebodies and America West didn't have any, then the rest of the seniority list was close to a ratio'd merger where you kept the same position on the bid list as a percentage as you had before the merger. In other words, if you were a Captain about 50% down the Captain list at America West, then you're a Captain on the new list at roughly 50% down the Captain list. If it had gone by strictly date of hire, then hundreds of USAirways copilots would have been placed senior to that Captain. Nicolau's award was quite fair by keeping everyone in the same relative position on the seniority list that they were before the merger happened. Nobody lost anything as a result of this merger. The USAirways pilots weren't happy because they didn't gain anything. That's not how it works.
inside0ut
Well-Known Member
That still makes no sense. "I don't like the company, so I'm going to screw a ton of other pilots over and make everyone lose their job because I'm not happy"?
Why the hell would you voluntarily put yourself out on the street? Why wouldn't you work to make it better?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You can't "work" to make your seniority better. If the East pilots were to be successful in negotiating a new seniority list that essentially staples the West pilots below them, then that seniority is gone forever. There's no "making it better." The West Captains stapled below the East copilots would forever be junior to them. If you go from being a senior Captain to being stapled below copilots, you really have nothing to lose.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
Ok, now that does make sense when you illustrate it like that. I think the point you're making (and correct me if I am wrong) is that US Airways pilots just want more more more which is what is putting the strain on that merger right?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That's correct. It's not enough for the East pilots to simply get a fair integration, they want to actually increase their seniority position. A junior copilots thinks he should instantly become a mid-seniority Captain ahead of the guys that were already Captains at America West before the merger. In other words, they want to take advantage of this merger in order to gain seniority at the expense of the America West pilots.
inside0ut
Well-Known Member
I think you are missing the point.
There is no reason to try and make a company fail just because you don't agree with the current policy. There is no reason to screw your fellow pilots because you are unhappy with company policies. If you don't like it, why not just leave? I mean, after all, with the mentality that you stated of "burn it down" the end result is the same. Why not let the ones who want to work there, work there? If they have the wear with all to try and change things from the inside, let them. You are not obligated to work there.