flyeagle111
CFO
I understand that center there is a lot more information to know, but as far as difficulty which one would be greater? For example, ORD or ZAU-which is more difficult?
Is center more difficult?
- Thread starter flyeagle111
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RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
It's only more difficult if you ARE a center controller.
anic:
Please let me preface this statement with the fact that I am writing this with only 5.5 hours of sleep under my belt on another 6 day week and man (or women - in funny Monty Python voice) am I beat and incomprehensible.
I have worked both, as I started out in the ARTCC environment for 6 years at Boston ARTCC. I have found in 22+ years of doing this that the TRACON environment, IMHO, is more difficult. Of course I have only worked busy LVL 12 facilities where the pressure is on to put aircraft 2.5 - 3 nm apart all day long (and into the night) and there is busy satellite airports IE PDK, FTY, etc..
I found that in the ARTCC environment you have a lot of people who are scared (I know I'll get busted for this comment) to work traffic and in the ARTCC environment these individuals where adept a hiding all day. In the TRACON it is such a small environment that there is no place to hide. I used to watch people at ZBW go a whole day without once plugging into position - sometimes for days on end.
Now, of course, with the staffing situation, this is probably not as prevalent as it used to be. Please do not think I am saying that all center controllers are this way because I know for a fact they are not. But with the Snitch machine, 5 nm J-rings, tons of noobies and every other useless tool to make it so they keep planes FARTHER apart rather than closer it's amazing that the aircraft ever get to my doorstep. Nice job ARTCCer's, hope I didn't offend.
anic:Please let me preface this statement with the fact that I am writing this with only 5.5 hours of sleep under my belt on another 6 day week and man (or women - in funny Monty Python voice) am I beat and incomprehensible.
I have worked both, as I started out in the ARTCC environment for 6 years at Boston ARTCC. I have found in 22+ years of doing this that the TRACON environment, IMHO, is more difficult. Of course I have only worked busy LVL 12 facilities where the pressure is on to put aircraft 2.5 - 3 nm apart all day long (and into the night) and there is busy satellite airports IE PDK, FTY, etc..
I found that in the ARTCC environment you have a lot of people who are scared (I know I'll get busted for this comment) to work traffic and in the ARTCC environment these individuals where adept a hiding all day. In the TRACON it is such a small environment that there is no place to hide. I used to watch people at ZBW go a whole day without once plugging into position - sometimes for days on end.
Now, of course, with the staffing situation, this is probably not as prevalent as it used to be. Please do not think I am saying that all center controllers are this way because I know for a fact they are not. But with the Snitch machine, 5 nm J-rings, tons of noobies and every other useless tool to make it so they keep planes FARTHER apart rather than closer it's amazing that the aircraft ever get to my doorstep. Nice job ARTCCer's, hope I didn't offend.
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
In TRACON world you have to know more than about 100 different approaches at, not just your main airport, but every satellite airport in and around your airspace. Crossing altitudes, courses, etc. plus a greater mix of complex and non-complex aircraft mixing into the same flow to the same runway.
'Course at the Center you have to know what's on the menu at the cafeteria
:drool:
ATC RET 2003
No More Vectors
I also worked both, although is has been more than five glorious and grand years since I worked either. (Sorry CJ and OG... not trying to rub it in... your time is coming soon!)
I was a 21-year approach/tower controller before going to a center for 4 years. Taking that route, the adjustment to enroute was not exactly a piece of cake for me. Not to say the center is harder... just that it was a whole new world. I expect if my career had gone the opposite way, the transition to terminal would probably have likewise been an adjustment.
During my swivelhead days, I saw more than a few "center pukes" come into towers and have an absolute b!tch of a time getting used to working local control. From my own point of view, it took some getting used to seeing airplanes go like bats from hell at higher altitudes.
I agree with queeno's assertion that they are different and you shouldn't describe either as easy.
ATLTRACON is also correct... there are lots of places to hide in the center. Camping on the A-side is a well-honed art. I never saw so many "walking wounded" as I did in the center, either.
The center has more airspace and faster moving planes. I didn't feel that there was more to know... just that it was different.
Approach controllers have less airspace to work with and, even though they're moving slower, they are a lot closer together... half your time is spent getting half your airplanes all to the same place at the same altitude.
I was a 21-year approach/tower controller before going to a center for 4 years. Taking that route, the adjustment to enroute was not exactly a piece of cake for me. Not to say the center is harder... just that it was a whole new world. I expect if my career had gone the opposite way, the transition to terminal would probably have likewise been an adjustment.
During my swivelhead days, I saw more than a few "center pukes" come into towers and have an absolute b!tch of a time getting used to working local control. From my own point of view, it took some getting used to seeing airplanes go like bats from hell at higher altitudes.
I agree with queeno's assertion that they are different and you shouldn't describe either as easy.
ATLTRACON is also correct... there are lots of places to hide in the center. Camping on the A-side is a well-honed art. I never saw so many "walking wounded" as I did in the center, either.
The center has more airspace and faster moving planes. I didn't feel that there was more to know... just that it was different.
Approach controllers have less airspace to work with and, even though they're moving slower, they are a lot closer together... half your time is spent getting half your airplanes all to the same place at the same altitude.
flyeagle111
CFO
Thank you for your detailed replies ATLTRACON and ATC Retired. So basically, once I get started in center, tower, or tracon, you would recommend staying there. Is there more traffic to deal with in each sector at a tracon? I can't believe some controllers were getting paid to do nothing all day at zbw. Where were the supervisors? ha ha. I noticed that center training is much longer than tracon at the academy.
ATC RET 2003
No More Vectors
ATC RET 2003
No More Vectors
I certainly can't recommend staying put, considering my history... five moves in 25 years. however, I started in the terminal option and the only way to get promoted (aside from waiting for a facility upgrade ) was to move.
My recommendation for anyone starting out now is three-pronged:
- get hired and go wherever they send you
- get checked out
- NOW you can worry about everything else
Do keep in mind, though, that the FAA is different now than it was when I came through... opportunities to relocate may not be plentiful or desirable. Keep getting as much information as you can here and from other sources and give yourself the ability to make an informed decision.
Whatever you ultimately decide upon, I wish you well!
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
Dude you are so right when it comes to enroute, we had so many traffic dodging turds at ZAU i just wanted to scream (and many times i did). i would love to watch certain controller do a little dance around one of our busyer sectors it was very sad also. they loved the money but didnt want to pay the piper.there is much less traffic dodging in my tracon every one takes there turn in the barrel which is the way is should be.if your afraid to work the traffic than get the #### OUT.
iam just the opposite i spent 20 years enroute before i went terminal and it was a huge change but i like it more than center control.it takes less traffic to get busy here than in the center due to the small sectors and the complex airspace in the sat sectors.
P.S 360 days till freedom
RetiredATLATC
Well-Known Member
flyeagle111
CFO
I'll go wherever they put me, its just nice seeing different views on each. I'm hoping to stay in the chicago area. I live closest to ZAU, so that might be nice. Queeno, congrats on 360 more days till retirement. It seems like everyone is trying to get out as soon as they can.
ATC RET 2003
No More Vectors
I hope you get what you want!
ATC RET 2003
No More Vectors
P.S 360 days till freedom
Hmmm... that give's me less than a year to get my 5,000 beers before you disappear.
You staying put afterward or going back home?
Fox Xray
ATC
I have spent my entire career in a center... while I would like to someday go to a up/down or large tower or tracon I don't see it happening. The comments about traffic dodging at centers I hate to admit is accurate, and just as stated I have heard that it is not really something that happens at other facilities.
From what I know in relation to other types of facilities centers seem to have better training departments due to the large size of the operations, depending on who is the manager of training this can lead to better training for someone hired off the street. I work with someone who's son was recently hired into a small up/down facility... the training department for the most part is non existent.
Once at a center expect to be there a while, the FAA spends a lot of time and money making you a CPC at an ARTCC and they don't release people easily.
I like the advice given... get your foot in the door wherever you are offered a job and worry about the little details later...
From what I know in relation to other types of facilities centers seem to have better training departments due to the large size of the operations, depending on who is the manager of training this can lead to better training for someone hired off the street. I work with someone who's son was recently hired into a small up/down facility... the training department for the most part is non existent.
Once at a center expect to be there a while, the FAA spends a lot of time and money making you a CPC at an ARTCC and they don't release people easily.
I like the advice given... get your foot in the door wherever you are offered a job and worry about the little details later...
queeno
Ward of the Guberment
Hmmm... that give's me less than a year to get my 5,000 beers before you disappear.
You staying put afterward or going back home?
iam stuck in chicago till spring of 2010, then its off to buffalo, and i cant wait.
damn hearing all this stuff about center vs tower makes me wonder how working a VFR tower plays in. When you have five little punks running you're pattern (without tags), three IFR inbounds, Five waiting to go. Two helos wanting to head out and look at a traffic accident right in the middle of you're departure path. and trying to keep a hold on whos moving on ground. While making you're own Atis broadcasts, ammending strips and reading clearances.
In a way i am worried about when i finally get checked out and look to move to a higher paying facility, But then i think. How can it possibly get more complex than this mess i have swarming around me.
Anyone, go from a busy VFR to a larger center or tower?
In a way i am worried about when i finally get checked out and look to move to a higher paying facility, But then i think. How can it possibly get more complex than this mess i have swarming around me.
Anyone, go from a busy VFR to a larger center or tower?
Fox Xray
ATC
Elfmaze - I visited a VFR tower quite a while ago... I was surprised at what chaos the local controller was dealing with. I would associate it with being locked in a closet with a bee's nest and smashing it with a baseball bat. No one was listening, people were reporting no where near where they were, I was sweating just watching... LOL. Center's have more organized chaos...
To me complexity is complexity, it's all about how fast you can think on your feet, the big thing is the large volume of traffic that is worked on a consistent basis... there are always MIT restrictions, lots of no notice holding, minimum fuel, diversions, emergency's, etc. Just lots of things always going on. I have seen a few guys come from VFR towers and check out. As a controller you already have the basics, land line usage, phraseology, etc. All you need to learn is to work radar... plus as a transferring FPL you get more respect. A new hire needs to learn everything from the ground up ... a bit of a disadvantage in a big facility.
To me complexity is complexity, it's all about how fast you can think on your feet, the big thing is the large volume of traffic that is worked on a consistent basis... there are always MIT restrictions, lots of no notice holding, minimum fuel, diversions, emergency's, etc. Just lots of things always going on. I have seen a few guys come from VFR towers and check out. As a controller you already have the basics, land line usage, phraseology, etc. All you need to learn is to work radar... plus as a transferring FPL you get more respect. A new hire needs to learn everything from the ground up ... a bit of a disadvantage in a big facility.