Yes JC, there truly is a God: Skybus is dead!

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Cptnchia said:
So let me ask you this... PCL cannot be held responsible for his past actions because of his redeaming work.
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Redeeming work? My union work had nothing to do with "redeeming" myself. It's not about that. The difference between a PFTer (or a newhire GoJet FO, etc...) and a Skybus pilot is that they aren't making a conscious decision to take a job that they know is undermining the profession. The Skybus pilots did. Now, if some Skybus guy claims that he came straight out of the military not knowing anything about the industry, didn't know anything about unions or related subjects, and didn't realize how Skybus was viewed, then that would be a different story. I would hold no ill will towards him, and I'd be very sad for what has happened to him. But let's be honest here, the overwhelming majority of these guys fit the description that Baradium just posted: they knew what they were doing, but didn't care. They made a conscious decision to undermine the rest of us just so they could "get theirs." Ignorance is excusable. This is a complicated industry, and most people don't really understand it until they've spent some time it. But willful undermining is not excusable.

With that I'm done with this thread and frankly with this forum.
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I hope you reconsider.
 
Baradium said:
Faulty logic... if no one goes to these "undesirables" they won't be *around* to be bad places to work.

However, places like colgan aren't nearly on the level of Skybus. It's a disservice to the Colgan guys to compare them to Skybus.

While the Q400 pay at Colgan leaves much to be desired and needs to be rectified, it isn't nearly the same as Skybus, and people like Seggy went there before that came about.
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I am well aware of when Mark went to Colgan. Take the names out of it then. It doesn't change the question. There are plenty of places that people view as bad for whatever reason; no union, pay, work rules,etc. If people aren't there and trying to change them how can they ever get any better. They don't have to be on the same level, it is the concept.

As to your faulty logic comment, so every place people go to is great? If Colgan is great, then why the union push? IF SkyWest is great, then why the union push? Not necessarily because it is bad, but Simply, because the concerned parties are trying to make it better.
 
Baradium said:
The skybus pilots were all active and knew exactly what they were doing. One of their big supporters (mikecweb), admitted this last night when trying to defend them. They just didn't care how it affected others, as long as they got what *they* wanted.

This wasn't even a case of "they had to feed their families" which has long been an excuse for crossing picket lines.
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First off, I'm not a "big Skybus supporter". I just don't hold the opinion of treating these guys like they are scabs. And way to take what I said out of context. I said in the infamous chat last, where I might add I was called an "idiot" by another respected member of this forum, these guys didn't goto skybus to stab their fellow pilots in the back. They went there to be home in columbus and have an airline job. They went there as street captains and at $65k a year it was livable. They didn't take "huge pay cuts" but they did make a little less to be apart of something new.
I'm fully aware that I'm not experienced in the inner works of ALPA or any of that, I'm just providing a different view of what these guys did. The guys I knew there were former freight dawgs, flying barons and 310s and then lears at night. If they went from that life to a regional as some have suggested there is no way they could support their family, but at 65k a year, no matter if it's industry standard(for that airplane) or not they could get by. They were promised some extra goodies(stock options and profit sharing) that I knew were koolaide but did add some spice to the option. So some gambled and they have paid for it. They are now out of work in a weak economy and a stumbling industy.
I still find it a flawed philosphy to crap on those that start at these places prior to them become "acceptable" by the masses.
 
PCL_128 said:
they aren't making a conscious decision to take a job that they know is undermining the profession.
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Please. So when you ponied up to Gulfstream, NO ONE was suggesting anywhere that PFT was a bad idea? That a company should always put the cost of training off on a "student"? Never heard anything negative about the idea at all?
I'll bet you heard at least something and still went for it. A conscious decision indeed.

And I do not harbor anyone ill will because they PFT'd. But your hypocrisy seems pretty steep to me.
 
Cptnchia said:
With that I'm done with this thread and frankly with this forum. While the idea behind this website is noble, my personal view is that it seems to have been co-opted by a select few when it comes to certain topics. Remember, in this industry the saying, "But for the Grace of God, go I," holds true for all of us.
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Great! Another person with a wealth of experience and good intentions is run off this board because of all the bull ####. Soon there will be nothing of value left... It will be 14 year olds and adults who act like 14 year olds running amok influencing the future of aviation.

Wonderful. :rolleyes:
 
FlyChicaga said:
Great! Another person with a wealth of experience and good intentions is run off this board because of all the bull ####. Soon there will be nothing of value left... It will be 14 year olds and adults who act like 14 year olds running amok influencing the future of aviation.

Wonderful. :rolleyes:
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:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::mad:
 
Itchy said:
Please. So when you ponied up to Gulfstream, NO ONE was suggesting anywhere that PFT was a bad idea?
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To the contrary, all the advice I got was that it was a great idea! At the time, the only pilots I knew were mid- and high-seniority Delta pilots and former rEAL pilots. They'd never heard the term "PFT." Most were former military, and the rest had come to the majors prior to the advent of PFT at the regionals in the early '90s. Their advice was simple: "get that seniority number as quick as you can!" To them, it seemed like an excellent way to get a seniority number and build some hours to move on from the regionals. In their minds, the regional were just stepping stones anyway, so upholding the profession at that level never even occurred to them. You'd be amazed how many guys at the legacies are completely clueless about this stuff. If that's your only source of information, then you're not really getting a good view of things. But as a guy new to the industry, I didn't know that. I just figured that a bunch of senior Delta guys should know what they're talking about.

I'll bet you heard at least something and still went for it. A conscious decision indeed.
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That's not a very good bet.
 
PCL_128 said:
To the contrary, all the advice I got was that it was a great idea! At the time, the only pilots I knew were mid- and high-seniority Delta pilots and former rEAL pilots. They'd never heard the term "PFT." Most were former military, and the rest had come to the majors prior to the advent of PFT at the regionals in the early '90s. Their advice was simple: "get that seniority number as quick as you can!" To them, it seemed like an excellent way to get a seniority number and build some hours to move on from the regionals. In their minds, the regional were just stepping stones anyway, so upholding the profession at that level never even occurred to them. You'd be amazed how many guys at the legacies are completely clueless about this stuff. If that's your only source of information, then you're not really getting a good view of things. But as a guy new to the industry, I didn't know that. I just figured that a bunch of senior Delta guys should know what they're talking about.
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PCL, you're <edited personal attack, yellow card given> on this board and this excuse is horse####. I also think your joy for seeing these guys and gals at Skybus to lose their jobs is repulsive. It's too bad we have young guys coming up the pipeline that look up to you and all of your lame and pointless advice.
 
whaleroast said:
PCL, <edited> on this board and this excuse is horse####. I also think your joy for seeing these guys and gals at Skybus to lose their jobs is repulsive. It's too bad we have young guys coming up the pipeline that look up to you and all of your lame and pointless advice.
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I think you may be hearing this one pretty soon.........Oh but that was different because.......or lemme' explain......or whu happened was......:laff:
 
Those guys gambled on their careers that they would either be part of the next Southwest or Eastwind. If they were part of the next Southwest, they would live very comfortably. If they were the next Eastwind, they were going to be out of a job. Unfortunately for them and their families, Skybus became the next Eastwind.

I've been reading, and posting less and less, for many of the same reasons Cptnchia mentioned. PCL, you reek of hypocrisy, Why would a bunch of 'rEAL' pilots tell you to go to a school run by a bunch of EAL scabs? Honestly I agree with Skydog, and since you claim some of his 'facts' are wrong, name them. You do a LOT of skirting around the tough questions, and claim a bunch of stuff as simply 'not true' with no defense. You then do all this ALPA cheerleading, by berating so called pseudo-scabs solely based on where they work. You will have to deal with these new entrants continuously, there will be more after skybus, pilots will work there no matter how much people complain about them on the internet. You need to make friends with then so that they will work with you to better the profession, not berate them into submission to the point that they say "screw those Union bullies".

I'm not trying to call you out specifically, but there is a widespread attitude here, that is not condusive to "working together to take it back" on here, by the very people that are in the positions to do so.

I'm sure I'll be ignored or chased out of here because I shouldn't be taking about airlines and unions, solely on the notion that I am a 22 year old Engineering student, without a commercial pilots license. :rolleyes:
 
FlyChicaga said:
Great! Another person with a wealth of experience and good intentions is run off this board because of all the bull ####. Soon there will be nothing of value left... It will be 14 year olds and adults who act like 14 year olds running amok influencing the future of aviation.

Wonderful. :rolleyes:
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Speaking of that, do any of you realize that Calcapt is gone? Check out his signature line. :(
 
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
which resulted from a fire in the airplane's class D cargo compartment that was initiated by the actuation of one or more oxygen
generators being improperly carried as cargo, were (1) the failure of SabreTech to properly prepare, package, and identify unexpended
chemical oxygen generators before presenting them to ValuJet for carriage; (2) the failure of ValuJet to properly oversee its contract
maintenance program to ensure compliance with maintenance, maintenance training, and hazardous materials requirements and practices; and
(3) the failure of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to require smoke detection and fire suppression systems in class D cargo
compartments. Contributing to the accident was the failure of the FAA to adequately monitor ValuJet's heavy maintenance programs and
responsibilities, including ValuJet's oversight of its contractors, and SabreTech's repair station certificate; the failure of the FAA to
adequately respond to prior chemical oxygen generator fires with programs to address the potential hazards; and ValuJet's failure to
ensure that both ValuJet and contract maintenance facility employees were aware of the carrier's 'no-carry' hazardous materials policy
and had received appropriate hazardous materials training. (NTSB Report AAR-97/06)​
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Why can't we admit to ourselves we don't know EVERYTHING?

I certainly don't, but in 5 minutes on a website I have certainly educated myself....

I think I'll stick to the lav for more lighthearted discussion

Back to the lolcats...
 
You might want to take that up with the FAA and NTSB.

ValuJet was carrying their own oxygen generators packaged by their contractor SabreTech.

They were improperly labeled so that valujet could carry them and "not know anything"
 
For the love of Gaius Baltar, obviously it didn't work and it will be noted as the "K Car" of the airline business.

End of story.
 
OldTownPilot said:
You might want to take that up with the FAA and NTSB.

ValuJet was carrying their own oxygen generators packaged by their contractor SabreTech.

They were improperly labeled so that valujet could carry them and "not know anything"
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They were improperly labeled, so ValuJet had no idea what was contained. If you want to allege that it was some sort of conspiracy that ValuJet intentionally had their contractor mislabel the generators, then that's your prerogative. It's absurd, but that's your prerogative.
 
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