Alright, who's too busy for the traffic pattern?

[SpiraMirabilis]

Could solve your problems by always doing straight in instrument approaches. Well, that wouldn't solve your problems really but at least you could say: 'Hey, I was on an instrument approach -- I'm supposed to come straight-in!'

 

[minitour]

What's wrong with this? Every airport, whether it's controlled or not, has an active runway. It's the one people are taking off and landing on.

It may not be textbook form, but then, I don't do things like say "fife" for five or "tree" for three. Nor do I say things like "three thousand fife hundred" when saying "thirty-five hundred" gets the message across just fine and is quicker.

Nothing wrong with it until someone starts preaching "You can't use 14...the active is 19" over the radio. Or, as I've heard at a local uncontrolled field "You can't use that runway at my airport!"

Uncontrolled airports may have a preferred runway, but I have yet to see one have an active runway. This is getting nit picky though...along the lines as "with you" and "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Center" and "two four oh" or "direct we go!"

-mini

 

[Maurus]

I have yet to see an FAA publication that shows an upwind leg. Nor showing any entry other than entering on a 45 to downwind. Unless something changed recently, AKR used to have a lot of people fly an upwind leg when coming from the east.

For others it is because KCAK Class C airspace starts a couple miles to the south of our downwind leg and offers very little room to actually do a 45 to downwind.

Yea, those Kent state kids coming to my airport....OOPSSSSSSS, your from Kent aren't you Soku?? That is not the flight school to be worried about! anic:anic:

Ha, no it isn't. I think it was just a fluke since it happens rarely where I have a problem. Heck I think it only happens cause of our screwed up traffic pattern.


Oh man do I love it when the Goodyear blimp sits in our downwind leg. Throws everyone off by forcing them to fly a right pattern which they rarely fly

Wow...that's a shweet uncontrolled airport you fly at. It even has an "active" runway....:banghead::banghead:

-mini

What if there is only one runway? It is always the active runway, but I digress, I get what you are saying about people talking about the active with multiple runways.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I have yet to see an FAA publication that shows an upwind leg.

Can you show me where it says to NOT fly an upwind? More interested now!

Nor showing any entry other than entering on a 45 to downwind. Unless something changed recently, AKR used to have a lot of people fly an upwind leg when coming from the east.

Yep, we do it all the time. If not, guess we could just do a straight in! :banghead:

For others it is because KCAK Class C airspace starts a couple miles to the south of our downwind leg and offers very little room to actually do a 45 to downwind.

Yea, but we are under the shelf, so it isnt any real issues as long as you watch your alt.

Ha, no it isn't. I think it was just a fluke since it happens rarely where I have a problem. Heck I think it only happens cause of our screwed up traffic pattern.

its just not the pattern, its the quality of pilots, but you already knew that!

Oh man do I love it when the Goodyear blimp sits in our downwind leg. Throws everyone off by forcing them to fly a right pattern which they rarely fly

Guess you weren't there the day they were (as they said on the radio) "High Speed Passes" :nana2:followed by (as we were in the air). We decided to go to New Philly for IceCream while we waited. Note to self: If you are going to eat and ice cream cone in an airplane make sure its a rented one, not just a friend's!

We really need to get together and talk! (You get that job??)

 

[OldTownPilot]

The problem with the phrase "the active" is it is a singular phrase, meaning ONE runway. Every airport that I have been to has had at least two (one one surface). At my home field there is a short crossing runway that is frequently used. "Clear of the active" certainly doesn't work in this example. He would be clear of one surface while there may be another plane on the other surface. To compound this, the main runway has a peak in the middle and so you can't see the other end of the runway.

BHB could so use a class D tower in the summer. I have honestly been in 3 near collisions last summer (two were with the same airplane less than a minute apart), an one the year prior.

 

[Acadia]

BHB could so use a class D tower in the summer. I have honestly been in 3 near collisions last summer (two were with the same airplane less than a minute apart), an one the year prior.

A seasonal tower at BHB would be a great thing.

Did the FAA violate anymore fractional pilots for right traffic last summer? They were on a role a few years back and it was a joy to watch those pilots get tagged. A few of these guys would actually argue with the FAA that left traffic was not mandatory, but as you would expect, they always lost the argument.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Not that I know of.

I would have loved to see the Avantair chick get it for the right pattern while not announcing right turns and calling a leg ahead of where she really was. If I know you are being a bonehead, thats one thing, but when you try to hide it, whole nother story.

And the the beechjet for pulling out while i'm on a 1/8th mile final. so I go around off set myself from the center line, and he blows past me a minute later, maybe 200 feet to my right. Blue collared shirt, David Clarks.

 

[Soku39]

Well I'm glad the Akron people understand, and I'm also grateful that the people on the other end in the faster who stuff spoke up to explain their position. I never get to hear that kind of thing, which is where some of the disconnect comes in, a lack of pilots at the field talking is not a good thing is one thing I've learned from this. However to the guys in the fast stuff, I still think there's a good safe way to do a straight in, or non standard pattern, and then there's the jerk, unsafe way to do things. I think I just run into allot of people doing the latter.

 

[Maurus]

Can you show me where it says to NOT fly an upwind? More interested now!

The upwind leg is a course flown parallel to the landing
runway, but in the same direction to the intended
landing direction. The upwind leg continues past a
point abeam of the departure end of the runway to
where a medium bank 90° turn is made onto the
crosswind leg.

The upwind leg is also the transitional part of the traffic
pattern when on the final approach and a go-around is initiated and climb attitude is established. When a safe altitude is attained, the pilot should commence a shallow bank turn to the upwind side of the airport.
This will allow better visibility of the runway for
departing aircraft.

Although it does mention the upwind leg, it is pretty much only for go-arounds. As entering a traffic pattern is described here:

When approaching an airport for landing, the traffic pattern
should be entered at a 45° angle to the downwind
leg, headed toward a point abeam of the midpoint of the
runway to be used for landing. Arriving airplanes should
be at the proper traffic pattern altitude before entering
the pattern, and should stay clear of the traffic flow until
established on the entry leg. Entries into traffic patterns
while descending create specific collision hazards and
should always be avoided.
The entry leg should be of sufficient length to provide
a clear view of the entire traffic pattern, and to allow
the pilot adequate time for planning the intended path
in the pattern and the landing approach.

That is the FAA standards for a traffic pattern. More info on a traffic pattern here: Chapter 7 of the Airplane Flying Handbook (PDF)

Yep, we do it all the time. If not, guess we could just do a straight in! :banghead:

On an approach yes, otherwise we have to stay out of the upwind leg and go over the city and then circle around for a 45 to downwind entry.

Yea, but we are under the shelf, so it isnt any real issues as long as you watch your alt.

Yup, I was just saying the situation we were in that had us using the upwind to enter the traffic pattern.

its just not the pattern, its the quality of pilots, but you already knew that!

Oh yes, we have a lot of crazies on the field Heck for a commercial stage check I had my CFI (not putting the name out but you know who it is) pull my engine and I wasn't even in the pattern. I was expected to do a modified power-off 180. Modified cause there was no 180. I completed it, but it definitely wasn't the safest of operations when about to enter the traffic pattern.

Guess you weren't there the day they were (as they said on the radio) "High Speed Passes" :nana2:followed by (as we were in the air). We decided to go to New Philly for IceCream while we waited. Note to self: If you are going to eat and ice cream cone in an airplane make sure its a rented one, not just a friend's!

We really need to get together and talk! (You get that job??)

Ha I have never heard them say something like that. Here is another tidbit for you, I believe the Goodyear crew in our blimp was the one that got stuck in a thunderstorm in South Florida. They were switched with the crew and blimp we had in Akron while they made the new blimp. KPMP is the base for the blimp in South Florida (the crew down there is 100% better than up here).

Anyway Stephen told me to call him and tell him when I could start. I called him up the next business day and told him I could start at any time. He doesn't seem to interested in getting a new CFI right now. I'll have to call him or visit him again on Monday. If this job falls through I will have to move somewhere else, there goes my ideas of paying off some loans if that is the case :banghead:

Well I'm glad the Akron people understand, and I'm also grateful that the people on the other end in the faster who stuff spoke up to explain their position. I never get to hear that kind of thing, which is where some of the disconnect comes in, a lack of pilots at the field talking is not a good thing is one thing I've learned from this. However to the guys in the fast stuff, I still think there's a good safe way to do a straight in, or non standard pattern, and then there's the jerk, unsafe way to do things. I think I just run into allot of people doing the latter.

Ha yup, AKR attracts way too many bad pilots. There have been a few good pilots to come and go, but other than that, eh.:banghead:


Sorry for the small print for the traffic pattern stuff. the post is already huge as it is

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Although it does mention the upwind leg, it is pretty much only for go-arounds. As entering a traffic pattern is described here:

Then why does BOTH flight school on the field use it? Why do I hear Kent use it? So basically you are saying that upwind should ONLY be used for go arounds? Guess I can do that then. I will do the straight in, and if someone is in the pattern I will call a go around and then upwind, that or we can really have fun an fly to the 45 and let CAK controllers REALLY get concerned to our locations. :banghead:

Not beating you up here, just more of the proceedure aspects.

Anyway Stephen told me to call him and tell him when I could start. I called him up the next business day and told him I could start at any time. He doesn't seem to interested in getting a new CFI right now. I'll have to call him or visit him again on Monday.

I have yet to meet Stephen, he has never been there when I am there. The Geronimo is also down for atleast a week . They also only have the pipers (140) here for SEL, I think they really need to get a 172 down there as well. I will be there Tuesday for sim for sure, maybe I will see you there. (I'll buy the coffee).

Ha yup, AKR attracts way too many bad pilots. There have been a few good pilots to come and go, but other than that, eh.:banghead:

:yeahthat: Might be related to the flight schools attracting them, and then giving them bad habits.

 

[Maurus]

Then why does BOTH flight school on the field use it? Why do I hear Kent use it? So basically you are saying that upwind should ONLY be used for go arounds? Guess I can do that then. I will do the straight in, and if someone is in the pattern I will call a go around and then upwind, that or we can really have fun an fly to the 45 and let CAK controllers REALLY get concerned to our locations. :banghead:

Not beating you up here, just more of the proceedure aspects.

The FAA laid out the standard pattern for us to follow. It should be kept standard for safety reasons for new pilots int he area, but AKR has modified it to have that leg be an entry. I am not saying it is right as the FAA says the only standard for entry is the 45 to downwind. If we have to worry about anything, it is the FAA I am afraid. Heck look at departures leaving a traffic pattern, either straight out departures or 45 degrees to the crosswind side. Yet we do departures from the downwind leg at AKR.

The only problem with our modified traffic pattern could be for new pilots in the area. Like our wonderful business jets that use the right traffic. They are sitting in our upwind legs that everyone uses, but they have no idea it is there for us to enter the pattern.

Anyway, the reason why a lot of schools teach that way is because they were taught wrong in the first place.

I have yet to meet Stephen, he has never been there when I am there. The Geronimo is also down for atleast a week . They also only have the pipers (140) here for SEL, I think they really need to get a 172 down there as well. I will be there Tuesday for sim for sure, maybe I will see you there. (I'll buy the coffee).

I look forward to your impression of him. I still think he is kind of reserved. I may or may not be there Tuesday. Lots of work this week for my college classes. Sorry for the aircraft being down. I wonder what they do for maintenance as they don't have an on site mechanic. Unless they use the FBO's mechanic.

:yeahthat: Might be related to the flight schools attracting them, and then giving them bad habits.

Most likely. Unfortunately the bad habits are hard to get rid of once they have been taught.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Wow, AKR sounds a lot busier than it used to be. I used to live in one of the neighborhoods just next to the airport on the north end. I hardly ever saw any traffic there. It's been a few years, though. Still own the house and rent it out, but I'm never up there.

 

[Maurus]

I flew today and had 5 aircraft backed up behind me when I was doing my run up. They can't be angry that I had to do it since there was a piper cub with no radio land as I was finishing my checklist

Anyway AKR is growing, it has a second FBO and a new flight school that just moved in.

 

[Scandinavian13]

Uncontrolled airports may have a preferred runway, but I have yet to see one have an active runway. This is getting nit picky though...along the lines as "with you" and "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Center" and "two four oh" or "direct we go!"

-mini

I hear it was "advised" but it's still not "active," that's for sure.

Oh, man... I love the "aaaaaands." My roommate here, who's also a pilot does it all the time. I'm not one to normally harp on people for phraseology - I still don't use "tree" and "fife" - but I'll get on you for wasting time (once we're back on the ground, not in the air). It's one thing to be a beginniner/student/Class-B-Rookie and be slow with calls. It's another thing entirely to throw extra worthless crap in the call, wasting time. I know it's just a habit, but shoddy preflights can also be a habit as well - doesn't mean it's okay. "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand" is one of my favourites as well, because I wasn't ever aware 'and' could start a sentence. What makes it better is when you get an "aaaaand, uhhhhm, Center..."

If you Flight Sim at all and have the PMDG 747, you probably know what part kills me every time.
"Annnnd uhhhh, Ground, Cockpit..."

 

[madmax]

The local sky-diving operators didn't think the Traffic Pattern was a FAA regulated/mandated item until the FAA made it very clear to them that it was. My understanding after all of that is: TPA's are not suggestions, and you have to fly the legs the same way as everybody else.

 

[OldTownPilot]

The local sky-diving operators didn't think the Traffic Pattern was a FAA regulated/mandated item until the FAA made it very clear to them that it was. My understanding after all of that is: TPA's are not suggestions, and you have to fly the legs the same way as everybody else.

yep, its true. Some people (wasnt me) complained at BHB a few years ago about the frac providers. The PWM FSDO came in and violated a bunch of people. Now they all do left patterns, for the most part.