Procedure Turn

Zero1Niner

Zero1Niner

Well-Known Member
I have heard some mixed discussions on procedure turns (and I think I got some funky instruction on this). One of my instrument instructors basically told me that I am not required to make the turn on the depicted side, and that I can make the turn on either side. He insisted that there is 6 miles protection on the hold side, and 4 miles on the non-hold side, so it didnt make a difference which side I made the turn, and that the wind would be the actual determining factor to decide which direction to turn. Sure didnt ring true to me at the time, and it seemed like the more I asked him about it, the more frustrated he got, so I let it go. After reading the AIM (5.4.9(a)(1), it seems that you are required to make the turn on the depicted side, although you can make the course reversal basically any way you want.

Anyone what to chime in on this and set me straight? Thanks.
 
Zero1Niner said:
Anyone what to chime in on this and set me straight? Thanks.
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Your instructor is correct about the relative sizes of the protected areas; a slow airplane could get away with making the turn on either side. However, the larger side is the one that the approach designers intended you to make the turn on and thus it becomes law. The AIM confirms this.

As you move up to faster airplanes, the less protected side becomes more and more unsafe. Why build bad habits? Let's also not forget that you'd likely fail a checkride by making the turn on the wrong side.
 
A procedure turn has to be made on the same side of the approach course as depicted, at the correct altitude, and must be made within the depicted distance in the profile view (usually 10 NM).

If your instructor is saying turn on whichever side you want, that is wrong. However, you can turn however you want to... AIM 5-4-9(1) is saying that "Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of the turn is left to the discretion of the pilot..." The section goes on the describe some other types of turns.

Although an unofficial source on 7-12 of the Jepp instrument/commercial book says it a little more bluntly... "...it means you may reverse course any way you desire as long as the turn is made on the same side of the approach course symbol, the turn is completed within the distance specified in the profile view, and you remain within protected airspace."
 
majorityof1 said:
A procedure turn has to be made on the same side of the approach course as depicted, at the correct altitude, and must be made within the depicted distance in the profile view (usually 10 NM).

If your instructor is saying turn on whichever side you want, that is wrong. However, you can turn however you want to... AIM 5-4-9(1) is saying that "Headings are provided for course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of the turn is left to the discretion of the pilot..." The section goes on the describe some other types of turns.

Although an unofficial source on 7-12 of the Jepp instrument/commercial book says it a little more bluntly... "...it means you may reverse course any way you desire as long as the turn is made on the same side of the approach course symbol, the turn is completed within the distance specified in the profile view, and you remain within protected airspace."
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I remember reading that too, in the Jepp/Comm book this week.
 
tgrayson said:
Let's also not forget that you'd likely fail a checkride by making the turn on the wrong side.
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what is so crazy is that I asked him that very question. He said I could certainly do it that way on a checkride for sure. Guy was a total • anyway. Really bad attitude.
 
Drop him like a bad habit. There are parts of the country where a stunt like this will get you killed if you're in a fast enough aircraft.
 
Good thing is that I only had this guy for the simulator portion of the training. We butted heads the whole way through. I had a WAY better instructor for all of the flight training.

And I did pass the checkride. I went with my gut and chose to do the PT on the depicted side.
 
Why would you want to turn on the wrong side anyway? If you're established outbound, it should be exactly the same turn so could be the possible gain of turning on the wrong side? That just does not make much sense to me.
 
jtrain609 said:
Drop him like a bad habit. There are parts of the country where a stunt like this will get you killed if you're in a fast enough aircraft.
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Like the Procedure turns on the VOR approaches into KPVU perchance????

Turn Left: Mountains are about 10 miles away

Turn Right: Mountains are about 4 miles away

Forget fast enough aircraft, the way the winds have been the last few days that four miles of protected airspace on the non-turning side will disappear in a heartbeat.
 
tgrayson said:
As you move up to faster airplanes, the less protected side becomes more and more unsafe. Why build bad habits? Let's also not forget that you'd likely fail a checkride by making the turn on the wrong side.
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All true. On the MD11 at heavier weights, we will push the boundaries on the PROTECTED side!
 
Are you kidding me?

If you could make the procedure turn on the other side, then why would they draw it on the charts like they did?

Stupid, stupid, stupid. And this guy is teaching people?
 
tonyw said:
Are you kidding me?

If you could make the procedure turn on the other side, then why would they draw it on the charts like they did?

Stupid, stupid, stupid. And this guy is teaching people?
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Did I ever tell you about the time I saw an instructor tell a student to log time he just did in a FTD as "total [flight] time"?
 
jtrain609 said:
Drop him like a bad habit. There are parts of the country where a stunt like this will get you killed if you're in a fast enough aircraft.
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:yeahthat: Amen! Hallelieuah!

You do the Procedure Turn on the depicted side - i.e., the PROTECTED SIDE!

There is no "getting away with..." it.

Just my thoughts!

R2F
 
ready2fly said:
:yeahthat: Amen! Hallelieuah!

You do the Procedure Turn on the depicted side - i.e., the PROTECTED SIDE!

There is no "getting away with..." it.

Just my thoughts!

R2F
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Well . . . let's see . . .the protected side is protected! the unprotected side is a crap shoot:bandit:
 
Both sides are protected, there really needs to be better terminology use. Procedure turn side, non-procedure turn side would be best. You are protected on the non-procedure turn side for a certain distance (the distance escapes me). By saying it is "unprotected" it could just cause future problems, especially when teaching holds (hold side, non-hold side).

I am not saying the instructor is right in turning the opposite way that is depicted, but you are protected on that side to an extent.
 
No, the terminology is fine. Protected side and non-protected side because the only reason the non-protected side has a protected buffer is for "oops" moments with either you or someone else.
 
Maybe the CFI is confused? Instead of just dropping him, maybe bring it to his attention.
 
It really sounds like an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing in some hands. Seems like the CFI is taking a couple of true things about PTs and holds like
  • the "unprotected" side of both a PT and a hold are really just "less protected";
  • the AIM entries to a hold are just recommended;
  • you can perform the PT pretty how much you want to (forgetting the AIM's admonition that the PT barb =does= mean something); and
  • a DPE is not supposed to fail you on a hold so long as you ramain in protected airspace.
tossing them into a hat, shaking them up, and coming up with his own conclusions that don't really fit.
 
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