Future regional hiring

jtrain609

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Heya folks,


This month has been pretty good to me, and I've managed to pull 6 days off in a row here. Normally I don't get more than 2 off in a row, so I've got a little extra time to rant and rave.

I think we need to have a frank discussion about the future of regional hiring. We've got a bunch of cats coming in here looking for information on how to get to the regional airlines, and I'm seeing more and more people talking about how they don't want to CFI or tow banners or do aerial survey and don't want to get a degree. In 1-3 years these folks want to jump into the regionals and they've got this misconception that in the next 1-3 years the regionals will still be hiring people at 300-400 hours.

They won't be.

I'm sorry, that might hurt some peoples feelings, but there isn't much of a better way to say it. Whether we want to admit it or not, we're standing on the edge of a serious economic downturn and when the economy starts to tank, pilots lose their jobs. I'm not sure how many indicators it takes to see this. ExpressJet needs voluntary furloughs, as does Mesaba. Skywest is done hiring. Skyway is gone. Big Sky is gone. These are simply the first companies that are taking the hit from the slowdown in movement that has happened because of Age 65 and the economic downturn.

We've got folks looking for shortcuts in an industry where there are none and folks that are trying to get into an extremely competitive industry with the minimum qualifications. This is going to bite a bunch of people in the butt when they lose their jobs in the coming years, or worse yet if they can't get the job they're looking for.

What we've seen recently with the regional airlines hiring people with less than 300 hours is not typical. When I started flight instructing, you couldn't get a job at a regional with less than 1000 hours total time and 200 hours of multi. Not too long before that, you couldn't buy a job with less than 2,500 hours and 500 hours of multi. We are about to start trending back towards that direction here very soon and I hope that everybody out there is digging in.

If I were just getting into this industry, or looking at getting into it, I'd be looking at how to make myself as competitive as possible. Go get your four year degree, get your flight instructor certificates, build quality PIC time, take new and interesting jobs in aviation that will broaden your experience level. If you don't, I assure you that there are people out there who ARE doing this right now and when the furlough hits them, they'll have no problems finding a job.

Just some food for thought. I'll tell you the prospect of getting furloughed has made me VERY glad I finished my degree, kept my flight instructor certificates current and broadened what I can do to pay my bills. I'm pretty confident I could jump out of aviation right now and find a job that will triple my salary. If all you know how to do is fly, and with that fly in the right seat of a regional jet, you might be up the creek without a paddle a lot sooner than you had anticipated.
 
I'm glad I have my CFI because if things get real bad my old school said they'd be more than happy to have me back. All those "OMG I must get there right now" jetu type grads are gonna be hosed.
 
:yeahthat: Although I am a youngster who has not even got his PPL yet, I think that too many fellow youngsters, and even the oldies who wan't to get into the industry immediatly have a very severe case of SHINY-JET-SYNDROME. What evey happend to the CFI's that actually wanted to teach? What ever happened to the guys who were flying C-152's and were just as happy as the guy flying the 744?

I really hope that mins get back up to 1000/200 because then pilot's would actually work for their ratings and get to understand that flying for a Airline means nothing if you cannot fly a Cessna properly. It may sound stupid to fellow young pilots, but it is out of concern of people who neglect the small aspects of flying neglecting the bigger aspects because like I have said in previous post, there will ALWAYS be PILOT ERROR's.

I can very easily say that I do not wan't to be in the same airspace as the person who only cares that they are flying a jet, but rather with someone who has that Perfectionist attitude so to speak. The type of guy who actually care's how the PAX in the back are enjoying the flight, and actually care's to make a greaser landing instead of tearing the LG off.

Anyways great post:)

Oh btw. I keep hearing people who say they don't want to go to college because it is going to slow their advancement toward the regionals. Well HELLLOOOOO you practically only go to school a couple days a week, and what ever happened to summer and spring breaks? people are just lazy. I have plans to go to Vaughn College next year fall (going to an open house next month) and I am in no rush because by the time I step out of college, I should be stepping into a regional (or so I plan it). Anyways Jtrain is right in the future there are going to be people like me who have a 4 year college degree, CFI, CFII, MEI, and many things to go with it, who do you really think the airline is going to choose if you do not have atleast those things?
 
Just as a counter point (and I agree with John about getting your CFI ticket and degree) but not all is doom and gloom in the regional world. Just because stuff is slowing down at the places that USED to be booming doesn't mean it's the end of the world.

Eagle, Pinnacle, TSA, PSA, and Colgan (to name a few) can't staff the airplanes they've got right now. Republic has up to 75 airplanes currently on order. Mesa is about to go out of business because they don't have enough pilots to meet their contracts.

Sure, stuff IS going to slow down but it's not the end of the world.
 
Chris_Ford said:
Circle jerk thread!!!!
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Agreed - these messages which seem to come down every few months smell of "this is how I did it - I don't want anyone coming along and having it any easier than I did" more than "I'm just trying to help people".

If a person's goal is to get a job flying a jet, and there's a way to do that without selling your fellow pilots out, then I say go for it. It's up to that pilot to determine if they're ready to apply - and it's up to the airline to determine whether or not they have the skills necessary to fly their aircraft.

So what if some people don't want to instruct? That's their choice. If they can find a route to the airlines that doesn't include buying a job, then good for them. Sucks you had to go the longer route, but that's the way it goes.

And as the cost of everything continues to skyrocket, you'll see fewer and fewer people willing to work for poverty line wages - even if it's for a year. All the while, flight training is getting more and more expensive. Unless airlines increase pay, I don't think the market for those willing to ##### themselves out will be all that bad.
 
Great post. It certainly is a scary time to be getting into the industry. At one point I was contemplating rushing through my ratings and jumping in with a regional, but that is as far as it went. I already have a 4 year degree but aviation is where I want to work. The best way to keep a job is have a better resume than the next guy. In this industry I think that means getting all your instructor ratings than using them to build time. If that means I have to instruct for a few years before the airlines start hiring again then so be it. Cessna's are fun to fly so I will still be happy.

This down turn is not a good thing, but it could have a few positive outcomes. One will be that it will wash out the people who were hoping to get into aviation to strike it rich. If this forum has taught me anything it is that you need to have a love of aviation not just money since the money is sparse for a good number of years.

When it all shakes out the pilots who want to fly for a living will come back and those who were just jumping on the next trend will have moved on. This may also help in negotiating contracts. If there is not the large pool of pilots who will readily undercut salaries then maybe salaries will go up.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Agreed - these messages which seem to come down every few months smell of "this is how I did it - I don't want anyone coming along and having it any easier than I did" more than "I'm just trying to help people".

If a person's goal is to get a job flying a jet, and there's a way to do that without selling your fellow pilots out, then I say go for it. It's up to that pilot to determine if they're ready to apply - and it's up to the airline to determine whether or not they have the skills necessary to fly their aircraft.

So what if some people don't want to instruct? That's their choice. If they can find a route to the airlines that doesn't include buying a job, then good for them. Sucks you had to go the longer route, but that's the way it goes.

And as the cost of everything continues to skyrocket, you'll see fewer and fewer people willing to work for poverty line wages - even if it's for a year. All the while, flight training is getting more and more expensive. Unless airlines increase pay, I don't think the market for those willing to ##### themselves out will be all that bad.
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I figured this was coming.

It's not about saying, "This is how I did it, I know everything, do what I did or you're hosed!" It actually has more to do with going above and beyond the minimum qualifications. Let's face it, once the flood gates shut down here soon there are going to be a lot of folks complaining about how they "have to instruct" or "have to go to college." That trend, quite frankly, scares the piss out of me. We're turning into a country of people that wants to do the minimum amount of work necessary, but they still want a big pay out in the end.

This is about going above and beyond, about not having the blinders on about what is likely to happen in this industry. It's about not being a hack, which is exactly what I think we've been promoting. This has nothing to do with selling anybody out except for yourself, which is again, something I think we've been promoting. It's about wanting to be the best possible pilot you can be, by broadening yourself as much as possible, so you can beat the living piss out of the guy next to you in the interview.

That doesn't seem very important these days, and it concerns me that anytime somebody brings up the idea that people might be advised to go above and beyond, they're ridiculed for being elitist. It used to be that if you advocated doing anything but doing as much as you possibly can to prepare you the best for this industry you were ostracized. But now the opposite seems true.

The pissing match this thread is about to turn into is another reason why we've lost a lot of good people from these forums, because airline pilots got sick of folks screaming about what they wanted to hear instead of what they needed to hear.

EDIT: BTW I think this whole discussion is akin to attacking the guy that says, "You know, the market looks like might be going through some rough times. Investing in high risk ventures might be a bad idea right now as you've got a better chance of getting burned than you do of recouping your money," with, "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU POOPY FACED SOB!!! I WANT TO MAKE LOTS OF MONEY NOW! DON'T TELL ME WHAT I DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND GIVE ME SOUND ADVICE!"
 
jtrain609 said:
That doesn't seem very important these days, and it concerns me that anytime somebody brings up the idea that people might be advised to go above and beyond, they're ridiculed for being elitist. It used to be that if you advocated doing anything but doing as much as you possibly can to prepare you the best for this industry you were ostracized. But now the opposite seems true.
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The problem is pilots speaking out of both sides of their mouth. "Seniority is everything" but somehow you should go to college? Look, I agree with the basic sentiment but this is one of those "look how wise I am!" threads that really, nobody needs to be hearing from a first year FO. This is the heart of what my signature is about. We need to hear threads like these from those who have been in the industry for 10, 20 and 30 years, not 10, 20 and 30 months...

The pissing match this thread is about to turn into is another reason why we've lost a lot of good people from these forums, because airline pilots got sick of folks screaming about what they wanted to hear instead of what they needed to hear.
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And people being ostracized for their decisions... But we wouldn't know of any threads that do that, do we? :rolleyes:

EDIT: BTW I think this whole discussion is akin to attacking the guy that says, "You know, the market looks like might be going through some rough times. Investing in high risk ventures might be a bad idea right now as you've got a better chance of getting burned than you do of recouping your money," with, "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU POOPY FACED SOB!!! I WANT TO MAKE LOTS OF MONEY NOW! DON'T TELL ME WHAT I DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND GIVE ME SOUND ADVICE!"
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No, this whole thread is about someone with no experience who took the long way criticizing those with no experience who took the short way. Despite what you think, your efforts are not going to change much, if anything.
 
And the theme continues....

Granted, everyone wants their opinion to be heard, but I have read the same line of arguments for months now. It does get old folks.

The sky is falling...it isn't falling....it SO IS!!! NO IT ISN'T!!!!

OK, off to the Lav....sure there is no bickering there. :sarcasm:
 
I don't think the regionals are going to stop hiring. I think we will see a downturn, but not to the major extent many are predicting. However, I do think the advice about getting a degree and your CFI/CFII/MEI certificates is sound.

Honestly, you can and will get hired at the regionals without a degree or your instructor certificates. It happens all the time. However, you are really limiting yourself in many ways. Should you lose your job through a furlough, you are losing options. Why do that?

I see the seniority argument all the time. It is true... You will lose seniority by not going to the regionals right away. Although you may gain two or three years seniority, how much do you lose by not having a degree or ever instructing? I don't have the answer. Just something to think about.

Just do what is right for you. I personally am a strong believer in the degree and CFI route, even if you only instruct for a few months. I've found this career is more exciting when you enjoy the journey more than worrying about the destination... For me, college and getting my CFI was a very exciting part of that journey.

But take what I say with a grain of salt. After all, I'm only 26 years old with about 4000 hours and over 5 years in the industry.
 
A couple points.

If you can't have a rational discussion without insulting one another or setting off the profanity filter, you don't belong in the thread. Grab a juice box, a blankie and take a nap.

Remember, this career is cyclical and largely follows the economic swings.

There are going to be good times and there are also going to be bad times, but if you're in it to win it, you'll be fine.

If you've followed even the most basic of guidance that most of at JC offer, keeping debt low, having a degree and a plan-B, you'll be fine if/when things get a little rocky.

But if you ran guns a blazing down to "sign right here, you'll make up that $100K loan with your first paycheck from TransGlobal, nevermind getting a degree and who needs a silly backup plan" you're probably going to get rocked.

I think we're seeing the first hints of a downturn. It's not aero armageddon but I don't think we're going to see many knife fights in the street between human resource managers fighting over pilot applicants.
 
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