Logging Cross Country Time?

[centralhome]

I know that if you are not working toward a rating, cross country is any time where you land at an airport other than you departed, regardless of distance.
So I was wondering do you Instructors log any flight to another airport with students as cross country no matter the distance for you're logbook?

Thanks

 

[Blip16]

yup, i was PIC for the flight and that is where we went

 

[Crockrocket94]

So basically for 135 cross country minimums, IE the 500 or so, I can count any flight that landed at another airport as cross country?

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

So basically for 135 cross country minimums, IE the 500 or so, I can count any flight that landed at another airport as cross country?

61.1

" (3) Cross-country time means--
[(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--]
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

61.1

" (3) Cross-country time means--
[(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight--]
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point."

Yeah that! 61.1 (3) (ii) - (vii) has everything specifically laid out. But, to answer your question Crockrocket, I believe you still have to meet that straight-line distance of more than 50 NM from the original point of departure, to be able to log it as x/c. Although, 61.1 addresses this as private, instrument, commercial, ATP, and does not specifically say anything about 135 requirements. The only rating that is different for logging x/c's under 61.1 (3) is for sport pilot. The requirement for logging x/c for the sport pilot is 25 NM from originating airport. Interesting that ATP is there, but not 135 requirements.

 

[PanJet]

But, to answer your question Crockrocket, I believe you still have to meet that straight-line distance of more than 50 NM from the original point of departure, to be able to log it as x/c.

You can log it however you want. Many people don't log <50 nm as XC, but that's simply because it avoids having to recalculate if you're going for a rating. Once you have 500+ XC it really doesn't matter. It's still XC time if you land at another airport, and you can log it as such.

Although, 61.1 addresses this as private, instrument, commercial, ATP, and does not specifically say anything about 135 requirements....Interesting that ATP is there, but not 135 requirements.

It lists ATP because Part 61 is about pilot certification, including ATP. Part 135 is a totally different part having nothing to do with pilot certification. Part 135 just says 500 hours of XC time, and XC time is point-to-point by definition.

 

[Chewie von Nubbins]

It lists ATP because Part 61 is about pilot certification, including ATP. Part 135 is a totally different part having nothing to do with pilot certification. Part 135 just says 500 hours of XC time, and XC time is point-to-point by definition.

Thanks for the info.

So you are saying that the 135 minimums/requirements and checkride are not a pilot certification? Therefore, the ATP license and the 135 checkride and license are two completely different animals as far as meeting requirements? I also looked into the 135 regs in the FAR and could not find anything that addressed it. Maybe it was there and I just Tom Glancy'ed it. I don't know.

 

[PanJet]

So you are saying that the 135 minimums/requirements and checkride are not a pilot certification? Therefore, the ATP license and the 135 checkride and license are two completely different animals as far as meeting requirements?

Not as far as a your actual certificate is concerned. If you are a CP-ASMEL, before your 135 checkride, you're still a CP-ASMEL after as well. The checkride is to qualify to be a PIC under Part 135 operations, whereas an ATP checkride actually changes your pilot certificate from CP to ATP. Even if you have an ATP, you still have to do checkrides under 121 or 135 to be able to qualify under those parts.

A Part 135 checkride is indeed very similar to an ATP checkride, but you're correct; they are a totally different animal. For Part 135 it is laid out in Subpart G (Parts 135.291-135.301).

The 500 hour XC requirement for Part 135 comes from 135.243 (c)(2). The ATP XC requirement listed in 61.159 (a)(1) says the same thing as 135 when it says "cross-country flight time," which if there was nothing else would indicate that it was only point-to-point, but there is the little thing in 61.1 (b)(3)(vi) that says XC time for ATP must be at least 50 nm. However, it doesn't say you actually have to land.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Interesting that ATP is there, but not 135 requirements.

Sure it is.

==============================
61.1(3) Cross-country time means--
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during a flight...
==============================

If there no special mention of something in (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi), it's covered by the general rule in (b)(3)(i).

 

[The Gardener]

i keep 2 colums in my logbook. one for 50nm x/c and another for airport to airport.

I also keep my logbook on an excel spreadsheet. I no longer do a 'paper' log. I back it up to 2 devices each night and it works great.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Realize this was an old thread, but I'm not sure if a consensus was ever reached. At this point in my career I'm above 500 point to point, but as I do flight instruction, I'm somewhere between 200 and 300 50NM. I am about 60 hours shy of 1200. I would say that part 135 says "Cross country" and 61.1 defines cross country as the basic point to point, with the more specific descriptions applying to airman certificates, I'm thinking the point to point is all that applies, but would the FAA agree with me?

 

[Houston]

but would the FAA agree with me?

Yes, but if you want to get the "warm fuzzy" feeling, just ask MidlifeFlyer.

 

[Cass]

Keep track of both. X/C (>50nm) and point-to-point X/C.

 

[aaronwexler]

I am just now adding up my x-cntry time for my 135mins and where would a x-cntry flight fall if you were acting as a safety pilot to a location more than 50nm away and the other pilot does the landing. It is a cross country flight but there is no landing in your logbook even though there was a landing. I am guessing that because of 61.1 (3)(i)(C) "That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure" this would be no good. Opinions?

 

[gotWXdagain]

I am just now adding up my x-cntry time for my 135mins and where would a x-cntry flight fall if you were acting as a safety pilot to a location more than 50nm away and the other pilot does the landing. It is a cross country flight but there is no landing in your logbook even though there was a landing. I am guessing that because of 61.1 (3)(i)(C) "That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure" this would be no good. Opinions?

By the logic in your last sentence there, so would flight instruction. However, as safety pilot I am not sure, that is a good one. Why'd you need to fly 50nm?

 

[mat]

I am just now adding up my x-cntry time for my 135mins and where would a x-cntry flight fall if you were acting as a safety pilot to a location more than 50nm away and the other pilot does the landing.

You must have "acquired the time" that the landing occurred in. So you must have (switched PIC and) done your own landing. Most people say that you can't log XC when safety piloting. But, it seems that as long as you acquire the time during the three phases of flight, then it can be logged. I assume that >50nm safety pilot no landing flights would still count for ATP minimums but then you probably need to have done a takeoff.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I am just now adding up my x-cntry time for my 135mins and where would a x-cntry flight fall if you were acting as a safety pilot to a location more than 50nm away and the other pilot does the landing. It is a cross country flight but there is no landing in your logbook even though there was a landing. I am guessing that because of 61.1 (3)(i)(C) "That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure" this would be no good. Opinions?

The FAA Chief Counsel has already said that only the pilot who does the takeoff and landing may log the time as cross country. The opinions (one specifically about safety pilots) dealt specifically with counting cross countries toward certificate and rating requirements. Whether/how it would apply to "generic" point-to-point cross countries being counted toward Part 135 requirements is anyone's guess.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You must have "acquired the time" that the landing occurred in. So you must have (switched PIC and) done your own landing. Most people say that you can't log XC when safety piloting. But, it seems that as long as you acquire the time during the three phases of flight, then it can be logged. I assume that >50nm safety pilot no landing flights would still count for ATP minimums but then you probably need to have done a takeoff.

"Most people" in this case includes the FAA Chief Counsel.
FAA Legal-Safety Pilot may not log XC

Also: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf

 

[mat]

"Most people" in this case includes the FAA Chief Counsel.
FAA Legal-Safety Pilot may not log XC

"As discussed above, the safety pilot is a required flight crewmember for only a portion of the
flight. Section 61.65(d) contemplates that only the pilot conducting the entire flight,
including takeoff, landing, and en route flight, as a required flight crewmember may log
cross-country flight time. Because a safety pilot does not conduct the entire flight, a person
acting as a safety pilot for a portion of the flight may not log any cross-country flight time
for the flight. In your example, Pilot A may log the entire flight (2.2 hours) of cross-country
flight time because that pilot conducted the entire flight. However, Pilot B may not log any
cross-country flight time because that pilot was a required flight crewmember for only a
portion of the flight."

The safety pilot did not do a takeoff and landing. If the pilots switched flying pilot and did their own takeoffs and landings, then it would seem to meet the requirements. Each pilot would have been a required crewmember during each phase of flight. Of course during each T/O/L, one pilot is not required and cannot log that time.

 

[mat]

I need to send that scenario in to the FAA to get their response.