Techniques of the Professional Airline Pilot

[BobDDuck]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you do such a thing. When I see that our passengers are waiting for a wheelchair, I say "hold on (ma'am/sir), and I'll go find a customer service agent that can help you." Someone else is paid to push the wheelchair. I'll be happy to go find them to tell them that their services are required, but I'm not doing their job.

And that's you. Yeah for you. Really. It's not part of your job and I don't think anybody is saying you are a bad person for not.

But...

You are slamming other people for doing it. Not only are you slamming them but your are calling what they do pathetic and blaming them for the ruination of the industry.

I'm sorry, but that's bs. If THAT'S what is destroying our careers, we are screwed anyways.

I don't really go out of my way too much either, although I moved more then my share of old ladies in wheel chairs and tossed a few carry on bags into the jetway before. We don't have aircraft cleaners during turns so I'll help the FA cross belts. I'll do all this as long as I don't have something else I need to be doing.

I guess I'll just have to wreck your career then.

Oh, and a side note...

I was recruiting for ALPA a bit today, trying to get some newbies to fill out some forms. They were asking me why ALPA is so militant and how they seem to come across as a bunch of ########. I asked where they were seeing that and they said, on this site called Jetcareers. Turns out they were lurkers here and they'd seen your's and Velo's posts and were asking me how it worked to just pay a service fee and not be a member of ALPA because they didn't want to go around hating everybody. In the end I made them understand that MOST of ALPA isn't like that and that in person those people probably aren't as antagonistic.

Keep in mind you command (some) respect in the web world. Don't be trashing ALPA's name just to compensate for something you've done in the past or you deem going wrong now.

In other words, ya'll may want to tone it down a bit 'cause you're scaring away the future.

What ever. I don't care. I'm just there to collect my pay check and go home. Screw the people I'm supposed to be providing a service to.

 

[OldTownPilot]

...... And what do you think will happen if you accidentally hurt a wheelchair passenger that you're pushing? You aren't trained to handle the wheelchair,

HA... wheelchair training. I must have missed that class in CSA training.

The extent of my training was "hey, the wheelchairs are over there"

 

[SteveC]

Whenever I was in ATL and I'd end up bringing down a wheelchair or going out in the rain to retrieve a stroller because the ground pounders were a little slow, I'd always say, "Fly Delta! Air Tran guys probably wouldn't do this! "

Living proof in this thread!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

HA... wheelchair training. I must have missed that class in CSA training.

The extent of my training was "hey, the wheelchairs are over there"

I'd be willing to bet that it's covered in your CSA manual. From a legal standpoint, that constitutes "training." My manual doesn't list wheelchair pushing as part of the duties and responsibilities of my position, so I'd be up &^%$ creek if a wheelchair passenger fell out of his chair while I was pushing him and he decided to file suit.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You are slamming other people for doing it. Not only are you slamming them but your are calling what they do pathetic and blaming them for the ruination of the industry.

I'm not "slamming" anybody, Bob. But I'm not sugarcoating things either. You want me to tell you that things are all roses and none of your actions on the job have any effect on the profession? Sorry, not going to happen. Actions have consequences, both direct and indirect. There are indirect negative consequences to some of the things that Matt suggested. That's not "slamming," that's straight talk.

I was recruiting for ALPA a bit today

Thank you for your service.

They were asking me why ALPA is so militant and how they seem to come across as a bunch of ########.

That's a common sentiment even from pilots that have never been to an internet message board. Hell, that's a common sentiment from people that aren't even pilots. Before they've experienced this industry first hand, they think that unions are "too militant." These opinions were around long before Velo and I said our first word on the internets. It's a preconceived opinion on unions that's invaded the average person's thought process. Reagan and the rest of the conservative movement have managed to poison the public's opinion towards all things trade union. Many of the pilots you talked to today will be complaining a year from now that ALPA isn't militant enough.

In the end I made them understand that MOST of ALPA isn't like that and that in person those people probably aren't as antagonistic.

I'm not antagonistic, in person or online. I've never met Velo, so I don't know what he's like in person, but I don't find him to be antagonistic here either. Again, do you want sugarcoating? Do you want lies? What exactly do you want?

Don't be trashing ALPA's name

I'm not even going to touch this one, because I'll probably be too "antagonistic." Suffice it to say that I find it flat out offensive that you suggest that I have "trashed" ALPA after the amount of work I've done for the Association.

 

[BobDDuck]

You missed it (or maybe I'm so brain fried from 5 days of class I didn't say it well). They were all for going head to head with management. My company doesn't waste any time in screwing new pilots over so they know that it isn't all roses. I had to explain to them why we can't just strike out right. They were talking about personal, verbal attacks against other ALPA pilots. There worry was if they were a member and they didn't take the hardline stance (which, rightly or wrongly is NOT the majority ALPA view) they would be called out by the hardliners.

You're not trashing ALPA's name. Bad wording on my part. You ARE taking a more militant stand then the party line and you have borderline said that those that DON'T take that same view point as you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

It's scaring the newbies.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You ARE taking a more militant stand then the party line

I don't see where any of my statements are not in line with ALPA's official policies. ALPA has no official policy on picking up trash in the cabin or tossing bags, so there is no "party line" here.

 

[Firebird2XC]

All good questions/points, Charlie! You absolutely should keep the FA informed...You may need him/her to come into the cockpit to assist with something (maybe even getting the CA out of his seat so he doesn't set off anything.)
I don't know about Eagle, but we have deadheaders/jumpseaters on our flights most of the time and I can't tell you how happy I am to see them! I know I can count on them in case of an emergency of any kind. It is a great cockpit crew that keeps in contact with the cabin during the flight just to make sure everything is going smoothly in the back. While I recognize that some pilots aren't as "chatty" as others, it's nice to know they actually care about what's happening in the back, even on a good day day! It is especially nice when there have been delays and they sense the pax are "restless." Communication is a two-way street, after all!
That's why the recent GoJet incident over Hawaii dumbfounds me. Even if the pilots fell asleep, why didn't the FA's sense that anything was wrong and give them a call (unless I missed that being mentioned.) If the FA's are doing the same legs day in and day out, you would think they'd have a sense of timing. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

Times have changed. I'd wager the FA didn't have a clue on that flight. I can always tell when I'm flying with an 'old school' FA versus one of the new hires... The attention to detail and level of service with a more seasoned FA is always far superior.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Look, this thread has gotten completely out of hand. I told myself I wasn't going to even bother with it anymore, and even more than that, I'm going to take a nice long break from this board. So I'm going to say my peace, since apparently PCL et al want to call me out by name.

I posted this strictly as a suggestion for things that have worked for me out on the line. I am a strong believer in creating an atmosphere on my plane (and around my plane) based on teamwork and mutual respect. No, I don't go back and help clean every flight, nor do I throw bags all that often. But when I see the need, I chip in. When I see four or five wheelchair customers at the gate during a quick turn, I go help bring them to the plane. And yes, twice during massive ground delays I have gone back to help the FA pass out water to the customers. It was a great opportunity to talk to the customers about why we were delayed, how long we could expect to sit, and so forth. Trust me... There is nothing our customers hate more than pushing off the gate to sit for an hour. They appreciate it when we make the effort to explain why they are not relaxing in the terminal bar, and instead are trapped in a small tube on the "tarmac."

When I was back in college, I decided this career was perfect for me for two reasons: One, I LOVE to fly. Two, I love people. Being an airline pilot allows me to have fun flying airplanes and at the same time have fun meeting new people every day. There are tons of great flying jobs out there... We picked the one that flies people to and fro. This job is as much about customer service as it is about airplanes, because without the customer we would have no jobs!

If going the extra mile and taking two minutes out of my busy schedule to help fold a few seatbelts once in a while will help create a team atmosphere and improve the appearance of my airplane--and my airline--then I'm going to do it. If trying to give our customers the best experience possible while trying to reduce costs means I'm bringing down the industy...

 

[FlyChicaga]

(Sorry, on the PDA and ran out of space.)

...then so be it. This is a new world we live in... I was not around in the 60's and 70's to see the days of Pan Am, and I'm sure it was great. However, most of the history of the airlines I have seen was not like that.

I see the only way we can "bring it back" is by earning it. Not by demanding it, but by showing we can also change, just like the industry is changing. No, I don't think we deserve crap pay or crap working conditions. What I do believe in is taking ownership of the company you work for, and doing things to ensure your company remains competitive.

With that, I'm out. I will continue to encourage other pilots to be the type to help out once in a while, so we can change the opinion most of our coworkers have of us as pompous, arrogant asses. I'll also encourage unity amongst pilots regardless of union affiliation or the color of your airplane. We are in this together. THAT is how we win.

Take care ya'll. I'm taking a chill pill from JC for a while.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I am a strong believer in creating an atmosphere on my plane (and around my plane) based on teamwork and mutual respect.

Why do you feel that mutual respect is only achieved when you do other people's jobs? I've heard this same statement from many JetBlue pilots who clean the planes, and I've never understood why they feel their coworkers will only respect them if they do other people's work. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Pinnacle or AirTran FA that thinks I'm hard to work with. I didn't have to do their jobs to earn their respect. I earned their respect by backing them up no matter what. I earned their respect by putting delay reports on myself rather than them when they got behind on their work. I earned their respect by keeping them and their passengers informed all the time about what was going on during delays, emergencies, and other abnormals. In short, I earned their respect by acting like a Captain. Acting like a ramper, CSA, or FA will not earn you respect. They may think you're a "swell guy," but true respect from your coworkers won't come from buying them off by doing their work for them.

And yes, twice during massive ground delays I have gone back to help the FA pass out water to the customers. It was a great opportunity to talk to the customers about why we were delayed, how long we could expect to sit, and so forth. Trust me... There is nothing our customers hate more than pushing off the gate to sit for an hour. They appreciate it when we make the effort to explain why they are not relaxing in the terminal bar, and instead are trapped in a small tube on the "tarmac."

I think it's great that you want to talk to the customers during these situations. But why do you think that has to involve being a waiter? The businessman sitting back there watching this is thinking "Is that the Captain serving drinks? What kind of mickey mouse operation is this?" I always made sure to keep the passengers informed during delays, and during long delays, I would go back and talk to them in person. One of the great things about flying a 50-seat CRJ is that it's small enough that you can look all of the passengers in the eye while talking on the cabin PA phone. Much more personal than talking to them from behind the cockpit door, but it doesn't involve doing someone else's job.

What I do believe in is taking ownership of the company you work for, and doing things to ensure your company remains competitive.

Where does it stop? Will you turn wrenches also? How 'bout dumping the lav? Cleaning up fuel spills? After all, the industry is only going to get more and more competitive as time goes on. Will you just keep expanding the scope of your duties until you're doing everyone's job to help the company "remain competitive?" Why not simply do your own job to the very best of your ability? I take great pride in flying the airplane to its utmost efficiency, giving the passengers the smoothest ride possible, and keeping everyone in the loop. That's part of my job, and its a matter of pride to me to do my own job to the very best of my ability. It stops at my own job, though. We shouldn't feel the need to shoulder the entire company on our own backs. We have our place, and the FAs, rampers, CSAs, and everyone else have their own place.

I'm taking a chill pill from JC for a while.

That's disappointing. No need to take your toys and go home simply because not everyone agrees with you. You should stick around and express your own opinions whether everyone agrees with you or not.

 

[SoCalAprch]

(Sorry, on the PDA and ran out of space.)

...then so be it. This is a new world we live in... I was not around in the 60's and 70's to see the days of Pan Am, and I'm sure it was great. However, most of the history of the airlines I have seen was not like that.

I see the only way we can "bring it back" is by earning it. Not by demanding it, but by showing we can also change, just like the industry is changing. No, I don't think we deserve crap pay or crap working conditions. What I do believe in is taking ownership of the company you work for, and doing things to ensure your company remains competitive.

With that, I'm out. I will continue to encourage other pilots to be the type to help out once in a while, so we can change the opinion most of our coworkers have of us as pompous, arrogant asses. I'll also encourage unity amongst pilots regardless of union affiliation or the color of your airplane. We are in this together. THAT is how we win.

Take care ya'll. I'm taking a chill pill from JC for a while.

I don't blame you buddy, more and more times I see myself and other people here being attacked because of differing opinions. This isn't what these boards are about. It seems about every thread there are some people that need to jump all over someone and tell them how wrong they are and start name calling. Its getting childish and ruining what this excellent resource used to be... Just because you disagree with someone doesn't give you the right to jump all over them. Don't let this turn into the others. If we wanted it we would goto APC...

 

[Kristie]

I call 'em like I see 'em. His attitude of doing everyone else's job is very destructive. That makes him part of the problem. He's certainly not as big a part as a Skybus pilot, VA pilot, etc..., but he's certainly not contributing to the solution. His actions are counter-productive.

I understand what you're saying but honestly, i think you're being a bit too harsh about it. Sometimes we tend to be harsher on the little items than the larger items...your extreme displeasure should be used for the guys who go to JetU or cross picket lines or fly for skybus....Matt may be playing a counter productive part (we all continue to learn new things everyday) but the way you're portraying your displeasure, to me, feels a little over the top. Like using the big paddle for skybus/scabbing vs the little paddle for items like this.

just 0.02, take it how ya want

 

[SoCalAprch]

I'll get strollers, push wheelchairs, help with some minor customer service issues and try to do little more than simply sit there and stare at the terminal before the door closes. But I think most folks at my airline are like that.

I think it makes for a much more pleasurable experience for the customers.

Agree 100% If you wanna help our great. I hop out and fold seatbelts when I can. If you wanna bash me for that because that isn't in my job description so be it. If you think you are too high and mighty as an Airline pilot to help out your FA then so be it but you have no right to tell the people that do that they are wrong. You are just an airline pilot, another pawn in the world of aviation, don't take yourselves too seriously now.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I understand what you're saying but honestly, i think you're being a bit too harsh about it. Sometimes we tend to be harsher on the little items than the larger items...your extreme displeasure should be used for the guys who go to JetU or cross picket lines or fly for skybus....Matt may be playing a counter productive part (we all continue to learn new things everyday) but the way you're portraying your displeasure, to me, feels a little over the top. Like using the big paddle for skybus/scabbing vs the little paddle for items like this.

just 0.02, take it how ya want

I can't disagree with that at all. This is certainly a little issue compared to Skybus, VA, Skywest NO voters, SCABs, GoJet, etc.. If I implied that this was equivelant, then let me clear that up now: I disagree with Matt's methods and think they are somewhat harmful to the cause, but they are in no way equivelant to any of the above mentioned items. These issues I'm discussing with Chicaga are little things compared to the big issues that you've mentioned.

 

[FlyChicaga]

PCL, in all honesty, I do see your viewpoint. I actually have a lot of respect for you because you are very passionate about this career, and you do a lot to try and regain the respect we deserve. We just have a differing opinion on this issue.

I just see no need for namecalling or any of that, which is why I want to take a break. It seems like most threads nowadays turn into an all-out argument because we all can't discuss things like adults. It is expected... We are talking about our careers... our livelihood... and it's our passion.

I would take the time to respond to it all, but we're going to play arcade games and to drink Mai Tai's on the beach.

Just time for a break. I only hope in the mess that is this thread that some of the members here got a little bit out of it. I only wish that many of the pilots here who have been there, done that could add some more value to it. I was hoping there would be a lot that I could take away to learn and become a better pilot.

Peace out dudes and dudettes. Hey. I'm in California. :-D

 

[SoCalAprch]

I can't disagree with that at all. This is certainly a little issue compared to Skybus, VA, Skywest NO voters, SCABs, GoJet, etc.. If I implied that this was equivelant, then let me clear that up now: I disagree with Matt's methods and think they are somewhat harmful to the cause, but they are in no way equivelant to any of the above mentioned items. These issues I'm discussing with Chicaga are little things compared to the big issues that you've mentioned.

Well then treat them like it. You as a former ALPA rep should know that the worst thing for the pilot group is when we start turning against each other and fighting.

 

[Kristie]

and i think everyone knowing that, will help calm things down a bit....

Altho Chicaga now knows that it probably isn't proper to assist in duties that are not on his employers contract, i don't see why the debate has to continue.

Personally, i think the career of Airline Pilot has to include customer service in some way, shape, or form...how you choose to do it and how often you do it is really up to the pilot isn't it? The way i see it, chicaga's trying to be customer service oriented...helping where customer service issues are lacking and not necessarily trying to undermine "the profession" IMO.

but again, i'm not a pilot...so it's just my opinion as a consumer.

 

[TheAlchemist]

Why do you feel that mutual respect is only achieved when you do other people's jobs? I've heard this same statement from many JetBlue pilots who clean the planes, and I've never understood why they feel their coworkers will only respect them if they do other people's work. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Pinnacle or AirTran FA that thinks I'm hard to work with. I didn't have to do their jobs to earn their respect. I earned their respect by backing them up no matter what. I earned their respect by putting delay reports on myself rather than them when they got behind on their work. I earned their respect by keeping them and their passengers informed all the time about what was going on during delays, emergencies, and other abnormals. In short, I earned their respect by acting like a Captain. Acting like a ramper, CSA, or FA will not earn you respect. They may think you're a "swell guy," but true respect from your coworkers won't come from buying them off by doing their work for them.




I think it's great that you want to talk to the customers during these situations. But why do you think that has to involve being a waiter? The businessman sitting back there watching this is thinking "Is that the Captain serving drinks? What kind of mickey mouse operation is this?" I always made sure to keep the passengers informed during delays, and during long delays, I would go back and talk to them in person. One of the great things about flying a 50-seat CRJ is that it's small enough that you can look all of the passengers in the eye while talking on the cabin PA phone. Much more personal than talking to them from behind the cockpit door, but it doesn't involve doing someone else's job.



Where does it stop? Will you turn wrenches also? How 'bout dumping the lav? Cleaning up fuel spills? After all, the industry is only going to get more and more competitive as time goes on. Will you just keep expanding the scope of your duties until you're doing everyone's job to help the company "remain competitive?" Why not simply do your own job to the very best of your ability? I take great pride in flying the airplane to its utmost efficiency, giving the passengers the smoothest ride possible, and keeping everyone in the loop. That's part of my job, and its a matter of pride to me to do my own job to the very best of my ability. It stops at my own job, though. We shouldn't feel the need to shoulder the entire company on our own backs. We have our place, and the FAs, rampers, CSAs, and everyone else have their own place.



That's disappointing. No need to take your toys and go home simply because not everyone agrees with you. You should stick around and express your own opinions whether everyone agrees with you or not.

Give it a break man!


Flychicaga had the best intentions when he started this thread and it's a shame he's taking a "chill pill" from this board. It would be way more productive if you would just post your opinions of what YOU think the proper techniques of the professional Airline Pilot should be instead of bashing the guy over and over again. It gets old really fast and it's counterproductive.


Flychicaga come back soon...I like the way you post, express your opinions and experience.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

PCL, in all honesty, I do see your viewpoint. I actually have a lot of respect for you because you are very passionate about this career

And the same to you.

I just see no need for namecalling or any of that

I honestly don't think I've ever called you any names.

Again, I hope you stick around, even though we disagree frequently. And I look forward to disagreeing in person at NJC.