SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
777, can you guys do CAT II in the ATR?
Autopilot Disconnection
- Thread starter blakman7
- Start date
Trip7
Well-Known Member
oh yeah!:nana2:
SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
Great thread and discussion guys..........lots of good informtion........
PCL - I'm shocked to say the least that the fed got p***y that you turned off the ap/fd on a friggin visual approach. I could see an ILS...but a visual? Wow. I can't say that I agree with you that it degrades safety, but that's why the call 'em opinions I s'pose. Certainly you aren't less safe using the fd, but I don't think on a visual approach that you're any less safe not using it.
Last night, had I used the fd on the visual (backed up with the ILS - I've always done it...just kinda "technique/personal procedure" thing) I would have been following a 737 right on the GS. Would that have been as safe as flying 1/2 to 1 dot high the whole way down?
-mini
Last night, had I used the fd on the visual (backed up with the ILS - I've always done it...just kinda "technique/personal procedure" thing) I would have been following a 737 right on the GS. Would that have been as safe as flying 1/2 to 1 dot high the whole way down?
-mini
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Uh oh, you just hit on one of my pet peeves. Time for another rant.
This is actually a subject that Pinnacle's training department recently cracked down on, at least in DTW. Pilots going to recurrent are being told not to intentionally fly high on the GS, and for very good reason. Think about how wing tip vortices behave. If memory serves, vortices sink at a rate of about 400-600 fpm. On an approach, you're typically following the preceding traffic at a distance of between 3-7 miles, at a speed of 2-3 miles per minute. So, vortices from the preceding airplane will be anywhere between 400 to 1200 feet below you on approach. You might catch a little residual turbulence in the air above, but the vortices themselves should be below you. So, let's assume that you decide to fly a dot high on the approach in a CRJ, and a smaller plane (a 1900, let's say) is 3 miles in trail. The 1900 driver doesn't see any need to fly a dot high, because he's only following a small jet. Nothing to worry about, right? But little does he know that the jet in front of him is flying above the slope, so his wake turbulence has descended right smack in the middle of the glide slope. The 1900 driver is now being beaten to hell, and really for no good reason, because the CRJ could have just as safely flown on slope. Basically, flying a dot high is something that is carried over to the regionals from the general aviation mindset that most regional drivers came from previously. It doesn't really belong in jet operations, and it actually somewhat detracts from safety for smaller aircraft following you.
Rant complete.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
People that I never Imagined are ending up on my ignore list!!
Nick
Well-Known Member
Uh oh, you just hit on one of my pet peeves. Time for another rant.
This is actually a subject that Pinnacle's training department recently cracked down on, at least in DTW. Pilots going to recurrent are being told not to intentionally fly high on the GS, and for very good reason. Think about how wing tip vortices behave. If memory serves, vortices sink at a rate of about 400-600 fpm. On an approach, you're typically following the preceding traffic at a distance of between 3-7 miles, at a speed of 2-3 miles per minute. So, vortices from the preceding airplane will be anywhere between 400 to 1200 feet below you on approach. You might catch a little residual turbulence in the air above, but the vortices themselves should be below you. So, let's assume that you decide to fly a dot high on the approach in a CRJ, and a smaller plane (a 1900, let's say) is 3 miles in trail. The 1900 driver doesn't see any need to fly a dot high, because he's only following a small jet. Nothing to worry about, right? But little does he know that the jet in front of him is flying above the slope, so his wake turbulence has descended right smack in the middle of the glide slope. The 1900 driver is now being beaten to hell, and really for no good reason, because the CRJ could have just as safely flown on slope. Basically, flying a dot high is something that is carried over to the regionals from the general aviation mindset that most regional drivers came from previously. It doesn't really belong in jet operations, and it actually somewhat detracts from safety for smaller aircraft following you.
Rant complete.
Interesting about the airplane following the one that is a dot high. I hadn't thought of that before.
However, flying 1/2 dot above center a few weeks ago a full six miles behind Qantas going into LAX, at 500' AGL it felt like my captain grabbed the yoke with both hands and shoved it as hard as he could to the left. Not surprisingly his hands instinctively went from his knees towards the yoke as I was correcting back to the runway from what ended up being 30 degrees bank to the left and pushing us (not yawing, but actually pushing us) off of the runway centerline of 25L so that we were lined up with the grass.
If another 1/2 dot up could have prevented that, then I would have flown a full dot high. We were six miles in trail and for a moment it felt like our left wing fell off while we were in that wake.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm proud to say that no one on this site is on my ignore list. I disagree with tons of people on this site about many things, but that's not justification to "ignore" them. Seems kind of petty to me. But then again, you're probably not seeing this since I'm probably on your ignore list, so I'm just wasting my time with this post.
P.S. If I had put Jtrain on my ignore list just because we had had a bunch of heated arguments on this site, I never would have seen his post about a meet-n-greet, and I never would have met him. Turned out to be a good guy, and we got along just fine. Just sayin'.
SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
Hey Mini,
Do me a favor. Continue doing what your doing. Last thing we need is another of us getting killed because they read on an internet forum that it isn't right to fly a dot high on the glide slope following another aircraft. What PCL doesn't realize is your flying planes weighing <10,000lbs with not a whole lot of thrust to get you out of bad situations. We've lost a Baron before to wake turbulence and I don't want to lose one of my fellow pilots because of an internet "rant".
One of my SICs, I forget if it was Ackeight or LJG, saw first hand what wake turbulence can do to a baron.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
Right on, brother. The most scared I've been in an airplane is a wake turbulence encounter in a Metro. Never again...
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about airline jet operations. With the smallest RJ weighing about 5 times what you're talking about, it's obviously a different situation. If you're flying a Baron or a C-208, then you operate differently than if you're flying a CRJ.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Waiting to start the APU is fine, as long as you don't have the flaps out of zero with the anti-ice on. Then you get "bleed misconfig."
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Ah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I would get the APU on then, too. I always waited until slowing below Vref clean+10 before throwing out any flaps, so I rarely got that msg.
Interesting considering...
I've seen what wake will do to a Baron. It isn't pretty. At the time I had about 20 hours in the Baron....the guy in the back was very upset.
Never again for me either.
Right...fly your 71 or 73 right on the glide slope following a 75, 76, 74, 77, 340, hell ANYTHING heavy. Let me know what happens.
The vortices may sink out of your path...they may not. There's no way to know.
The easiest thing to do is fly it a dot high if you're following something that could be hazardous to you. If I'm following a company Navajo, I'm not going to fly the baron a dot high. If I'm following a lear, I'll fly between 1/2 and 1 dot high. If I'm behind FedEx going in to LCK...I'm probably hiding in the corner
.You only have to make the mistake once for it to be too late.
-mini
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
The APM coordinator will show the vector of the wake. Just use the AP without the TYF indication, and the autopilot will fly the plane through it.
Any other option is reckless.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I do it every day, my friend. I did it for over 5 years in the CRJ also. Never any problems. Besides, I usually have the AP on until 1000 ft anyway, and there's no "1 DOT HIGH" button, so it kind of automatically tracks the GS.
You're my hero.I do it every day, my friend. I did it for over 5 years in the CRJ also. Never any problems. Besides, I usually have the AP on until 1000 ft anyway, and there's no "1 DOT HIGH" button, so it kind of automatically tracks the GS.
Kingairer
'Tiger Team' Member
Autopilot ON for a missed approach is a must in the 170. The two engine go with Autopilot and AT Disconnected is one of the more difficult training manuever if there is a complex Missed Procedures.
I really dont understand why you wouldnt do it that way. You push one button. Rather then ass and elbows and blowing through altitudes. The idea that handflying would be safer is false. Not only is workload much higher, youre really not trusting your airplane. If youve done a proper briefing, and insured that the MAP is in the FMS, theres no reason why you shouldnt be comfortable with letting it do its thang. By reducing workload, you are also giving yourself a better chance to intervine properly should something not go correctly.
In the 145, I can see more of desire for a non/ap go around than in the 170... Things happen alot slower (climb wise) and the airplane cleans quicker. With that being said however, on a day when a Missed may be likely, i would brief that the autopilot will stay on until we go visual, and in the even of the missed it would be AP on.
I really dont understand why you wouldnt do it that way. You push one button. Rather then ass and elbows and blowing through altitudes. The idea that handflying would be safer is false. Not only is workload much higher, youre really not trusting your airplane. If youve done a proper briefing, and insured that the MAP is in the FMS, theres no reason why you shouldnt be comfortable with letting it do its thang. By reducing workload, you are also giving yourself a better chance to intervine properly should something not go correctly.
In the 145, I can see more of desire for a non/ap go around than in the 170... Things happen alot slower (climb wise) and the airplane cleans quicker. With that being said however, on a day when a Missed may be likely, i would brief that the autopilot will stay on until we go visual, and in the even of the missed it would be AP on.