OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
There are two student pilots at our school that own airplanes. one has a Citabria and the other a 1947 V-bonanza. One was a fool, the other did his homework, I think you can figure that one out.
55-60K to spend......
- Thread starter brent p h
- Start date
There are two student pilots at our school that own airplanes. one has a Citabria and the other a 1947 V-bonanza. One was a fool, the other did his homework, I think you can figure that one out.
38bat
New Member
Scheduling is a great benefit, but the reason for buying for me was purely financial. I am planning on doing a full write up with all my costs and timeline when I am finished but since it seems relevant here, I will share the info. I ended up renting for my PPL which cost me alot of savings just because I didn't have the plane yet and couldn't wait. My cost so far on the plane:
Purchase price/escrow fee/delivery costs/sales tax +/- $25000
All New Glass with install(not done yet) $650
Panel Tune up and IFR cert $1,000
Year insurance(based on 35k value) $965
Handheld Gps $800
Crankshaft seal replacement $265
1 yr tiedown fees $300
Annual that will be due $1000
So my total cost for 1 year barring any mechanical failures $29,980
I have put about 70 hrs on the plane so far and the same plane at the flight school rents for $90 dry so for my figures, that is my "savings"
I shopped really hard and got a great deal on a great plane. The plane was dirty and had been sitting for a while so I cleaned it up and got it looking nice(I get many compliments on the ramp). I have been told it would bring 35-40k in current condition but who knows and it really doesn't matter at this point. I figure I will fly it for 300 hours at least which would be a "savings" of $27000, thus bringing my cost basis down to $3000. At that point the plane will have about 800 hours SMOH so should be valuable still. I also have the option of doing a leaseback to the flight school for $50-$60 and hour gross to me and they will fly 100 hours a month which could supplement my poor FO pay. I also could sell the plane at any time if I wish. Even on ebay I should be able to get 25k on a fire sale for an IFR, nice, low time 4 place.
To answer your specific question, if I had a major problem(which should be unlikely given I am only 500hrs SMOH but could happen, also less likely on a plane that is flown daily by the same person.) and had to send the engine in for a reman(absolute worst case scenario) I figured that would cost around 20k give or take. That is a risk, however......
Then I would have a very nice plane with a zero time engine(huge value add) at a cost basis of 23k. Remember, this is a now a nice 4 place, IFR certified, all new glass, good paint, nice interior ...... Still not a bad place to be.
As far as training goes, I found a CFI who was a captain at Pinnacle for years and now flies a few corporate jobs and CFI's. We are going to do a 7 day instrument X-C and the cost is very reasonable because I am able to pay cash and make it fun!(situation only possible with my own plane). If you can find a CFI that enjoys flying with you(one of the keys) and you have a nice plane they will work very resonably. The key for me is being able to schedule around the CFI thus not having to meet a schools needs(unless you were the only student at the school) and not having to worry about scheduling an airplane. After my Instrument I am going to take a big X-C from Florida to Catalina Island(thinking of going across mexico but that is for another thread!) then finish up my commercial and maybe my CFI. Hope this helps somebody!
Any comments or questions are welcome.
Purchase price/escrow fee/delivery costs/sales tax +/- $25000
All New Glass with install(not done yet) $650
Panel Tune up and IFR cert $1,000
Year insurance(based on 35k value) $965
Handheld Gps $800
Crankshaft seal replacement $265
1 yr tiedown fees $300
Annual that will be due $1000
So my total cost for 1 year barring any mechanical failures $29,980
I have put about 70 hrs on the plane so far and the same plane at the flight school rents for $90 dry so for my figures, that is my "savings"
I shopped really hard and got a great deal on a great plane. The plane was dirty and had been sitting for a while so I cleaned it up and got it looking nice(I get many compliments on the ramp). I have been told it would bring 35-40k in current condition but who knows and it really doesn't matter at this point. I figure I will fly it for 300 hours at least which would be a "savings" of $27000, thus bringing my cost basis down to $3000. At that point the plane will have about 800 hours SMOH so should be valuable still. I also have the option of doing a leaseback to the flight school for $50-$60 and hour gross to me and they will fly 100 hours a month which could supplement my poor FO pay. I also could sell the plane at any time if I wish. Even on ebay I should be able to get 25k on a fire sale for an IFR, nice, low time 4 place.
To answer your specific question, if I had a major problem(which should be unlikely given I am only 500hrs SMOH but could happen, also less likely on a plane that is flown daily by the same person.) and had to send the engine in for a reman(absolute worst case scenario) I figured that would cost around 20k give or take. That is a risk, however......
Then I would have a very nice plane with a zero time engine(huge value add) at a cost basis of 23k. Remember, this is a now a nice 4 place, IFR certified, all new glass, good paint, nice interior ...... Still not a bad place to be.
As far as training goes, I found a CFI who was a captain at Pinnacle for years and now flies a few corporate jobs and CFI's. We are going to do a 7 day instrument X-C and the cost is very reasonable because I am able to pay cash and make it fun!(situation only possible with my own plane). If you can find a CFI that enjoys flying with you(one of the keys) and you have a nice plane they will work very resonably. The key for me is being able to schedule around the CFI thus not having to meet a schools needs(unless you were the only student at the school) and not having to worry about scheduling an airplane. After my Instrument I am going to take a big X-C from Florida to Catalina Island(thinking of going across mexico but that is for another thread!) then finish up my commercial and maybe my CFI. Hope this helps somebody!
Any comments or questions are welcome.
thepedroid
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that. I was quoting aerosp although I did "agree" with him. the school I plan on attending would be about 45K ish.
After reading that it seems like buying a plane would be the cheapest option. I'd be interested in that full write whenever you get to it.
aerospacepilot
New Member
welle036 said:
You can get as much or as little mutli engine time from as FBO as you please. That is the beauty of going to an FBO. If you just want your commercial multi, MEI, and the 15 hours of PIC to instruct in a ME, then you only need about 25-30 hours of multi engine. Personally, I recommend getting the 25-30 hours of ME time, and then flight instructing to get the rest. There are plenty of opportunities out there.
Lets make a quick budget to show you how easy it is to ONLY spend $35k on flight training. To make things simple, lets just look at airplane and instructor costs. Add in books, supplies, and examiner costs is maybe $2k-$3k on top.
- Fly a 1980 era Cessna 172. If you want to save several thousand dollars, you could do it in a 152.
- Lets use the rate of $90 an hour for a Cessna 172. That is between middle of the road to high end for a 1980 C172.
- Lets use the rate of $40 an hour for instructor time
- Lets use the rate of $210 an hour for a multi. Again, this is between middle of the road to high end for a multi. I paid much less than both these rates!
250 hours of C172 flight time
Lets say 90 hours of flight instruction time (40 private, 40 instrument, 10 commercial, again, generous estimates).
Lets use 45 hours of ground instruction.
So: 250*90 = $22,500
135*40 = $5,400
Now lets say 10 hours SE for a CFI, and 25 hours ME for commercial multi and CFII/MEI. Say 35 hours flight instruction and 20 hours ground instruction. Again, generous time estimates.
10*90= $900
25*210= $5,250
55*40= $2,200
Total cost for 285 hours (NO SAFETY PILOT TIME), 25 ME, 190 hours (plenty of instructor time) and Private through MEI (for middle of the road to high cost airplanes/instructors) = $36,250
Now lets say you use my rates ($65/hr SE, $200/hr ME, and $35/hr flight instructor), you get a total cost of $28,550!. Add in examiner fees, medical, books, supplies, IFR jepps, and it comes out to 30-35K.
If you want 100 hours of multi, using the high rates you get:
$44,350. You DO NOT need 100 hours of multi engine time from flight training. But if you don't want to MEI, and you plan on going to Skywest or Republic...fine. Using my lower rates, total cost (with 100 hours multi AND NO SAFETY PILOT TIME) = $38,025!!
To see a comparison using FBO prices versus ATP, check out this post:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/airlin...attending-atp-please-advise-2.html#post748809
This compares the cost of doing ATP's ACCP to doing the same exact training/flight time at a local FBO, and the results are just incredible.
If you decide against buying your own airplane (could be cheaper, but may be tougher), then definately go to a lcoal FBO. The cost savings are incredible. And you can finish it AS FAST OR FASTER than ATP on your own schedule.
** As long as you do your research and choose a good FBO. We all know they are all not created equal.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
After 38bat posted about the Cherokee I did some additional research. His numbers pretty much add up with mine - although I do think he got a hell of a deal on the purchase price. Most of the Cherokee 160s I found were closer to 29K purchase price, and a lot of them looked pretty rough.
Nice part was that toe brakes had been installed on most of them.
I've never flown one, but I can't imagine that it would be that different from a 152. Seems like a pretty darn good option.
Nice part was that toe brakes had been installed on most of them.
I've never flown one, but I can't imagine that it would be that different from a 152. Seems like a pretty darn good option.
brent p h
Well-Known Member
O:K ...... I am beginning too see the light. ATP= most expensive, FBO=the median, private ownership, the most cost effective option. Coupled with follow-up at local FBO to accumulate required multi-time. ATP advertises a 90 day "fast-track" program. Is this what is commonly refered too as a "pilot factory"? Is it a accelerated boot camp or more of a flow thru program? Does anyone have any experience with it?
aerospacepilot
New Member
Here is the deal. ATP is a business, and they sell a product. They sell fast, but very expensive flight training. Despite its huge cost, ATP is able to market its program because many people want to fly for an airline, now, and will do it at any cost. They will do this before doing any research and figuring out that they can get the exact same training at their local FBO for much cheaper.
People who go to ATP justify the huge cost one of two ways:
- The training at ATP is fast. If they spend an extra month doing flight training, they lose out on a month of seniority and month of airline pay at the end of their career, and that is worth thousands of dollars
- But its multi engine time!! You can't get that amount of multi time anywhere else.
And to be honest, the seniority is everything, get on as fast as you can attitude can work against you. Ask the guys that got hired by American, United, Delta... on August 2001 (because they were a few months ahead of others), while others stayed at ExpressJet, Skywest, and Comair because they were a few months behind. The ones who got hired at the majors got furloughed, had to start all over at $25k, and got screwed. Meanwhile the guys who stayed at the regionals later got on with FedEx/UPS/Southwest/Continental... and are loving life.
The fact is don't believe the seniority is everything, train as fast as you can, or you will loose a month of pay while making $200k line of BS. It is simply wrong.
As for the second statement, you can get multi time at just about any FBO. People who go to ATP are amazed by the amount of multi-time they will get. What they don't realize is that if they sit down and crunch the numbers (like I just did above), they can still get as much multi time (or more), and pay much less by going to their local FBO. If you go to ATP, the equivalent cost of renting a multi from ATP is about $350/hr, and that is just nuts!!
ATP markets their flight training as faster than everyone else. That is why they are so appealing to others. But the fact is training at a local FBO is as fast (or faster). ATP also markets their training as superior because you get more multi time. Again, the fact is training at a local FBO can get you as much (or more) multi-time than training at ATP. And the bottom line is the FBO route is almost half the cost ($35k at FBO versus $63k at ATP)
Now for your specifically Brent P H. It looks like you are a career changer. So I understand your desire to get flight training as quick as possible. But don't let this lure you to ATP. You can do one of two things:
- Keep your current job. Do your flight training either before or after work, and on the weekends. Spend about a year and get all your licenses and ratings while still working full time and making money.
- Quit your job and fly as often as possible (twice a day, everyday). You can finish all your licenses and ratings in 5-6 months at your local FBO doing this. If ATP does it in 5 months (2 months for private, and 3 months for instrument to MEI), you can do it as fast or faster.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Since I'm a big believer in fairness, I will point out a couple of things in favor of ATP as well...
Aircraft Availability - you will have LOTS of extremely well-maintained aircraft at your disposal. Most FBOs have 1 or 2 twins shared among the entire student body. MX may or may not be good.
Housing - is INCLUDED in that price at ATP. When comparing pricing structures, make sure to factor that in.
The Private Program at ATP is $8995, but that gets you 85 hours in the aircraft, ground and instruction included. That's $105 an hour wet, with instructor in a well-maintained GPS-equipped single. Not a bad deal, really, in most markets. That also includes insurance.
All of this stuff is why I've given SERIOUS consideration to Career Pilot School in KS. They keep it small, they're not TOO cheap but they're not the most expensive, either. They have given me the impression, both from direct phone conversations as well as posting here that they are concerned most with the quality of your instruction.
If I was NOT going to buy an airplane and quit my job and lose the girlfriend (none of which will happen) this is most likely the place I would train.
Aircraft Availability - you will have LOTS of extremely well-maintained aircraft at your disposal. Most FBOs have 1 or 2 twins shared among the entire student body. MX may or may not be good.
Housing - is INCLUDED in that price at ATP. When comparing pricing structures, make sure to factor that in.
The Private Program at ATP is $8995, but that gets you 85 hours in the aircraft, ground and instruction included. That's $105 an hour wet, with instructor in a well-maintained GPS-equipped single. Not a bad deal, really, in most markets. That also includes insurance.
All of this stuff is why I've given SERIOUS consideration to Career Pilot School in KS. They keep it small, they're not TOO cheap but they're not the most expensive, either. They have given me the impression, both from direct phone conversations as well as posting here that they are concerned most with the quality of your instruction.
If I was NOT going to buy an airplane and quit my job and lose the girlfriend (none of which will happen) this is most likely the place I would train.
38bat
New Member
Yes, I did get a good deal though I believe there are lots of good deals to be had. Mine does have toe brakes by the way. As far as training at an FBO just make sure that you can get an instructor when you want. One of the hard parts for me was getting more than a couple of hours at a whack because other students need the plane. With my plane, all I need to schedule is the instructor. One more factor that may or may not apply to you is the "fun" factor. I am a career changer and am definately on a timeline but It is really fun to go flying with friends and family and take long X-C's without worrying about getting the plane back. Take last weekend for instance. Slept in On Saturday, no plans. Weather was nice so off to the airport we go. Fly down to Panama City, take courtesy car to beach and lunch. Fly around a bit more and head up to Tallahassee for Dinner, finally arrive home around 10PM.
Not sure how that would work at a flight school??
Hello, Scheduling? Yes, I would like a plane ready in say an hour or so? How long, hmmm.. I'm not really sure, if it is nice I may stay a while could you just block it out for me for the next couple days?
As far as the Cherokee 160 vs Cessna 152.... I have about 25 hours in a 152 and about 75 now in the 160 so I think I am qualified to comment....
No comparison.
152 is a bumpy 2 place trainer which I did enjoy flying but the 152 is a yugo with a 172 or a cherokee being a cadillac. Just my opinion. My biggest problem with the 152 was the size. I could barely get in the thing with my instructor and we were always overweight. Take the 160, I can take myself, my wife and my two kids, 50 gallons of fuel and even throw in a few bags. The 160 is much more stable, much more capable and much faster. Really not a fair comparison as the 152 fits a much different mission profile. A 172 would be a better comparison that would be fun to debate.
I was considering ATP and figured for the same amount of money I could end up owning a plane. I planned on buying a block of twin time at Ari-Ben when factoring things although I think I may change my mind on that.
Not sure how that would work at a flight school??
Hello, Scheduling? Yes, I would like a plane ready in say an hour or so? How long, hmmm.. I'm not really sure, if it is nice I may stay a while could you just block it out for me for the next couple days?
As far as the Cherokee 160 vs Cessna 152.... I have about 25 hours in a 152 and about 75 now in the 160 so I think I am qualified to comment....
No comparison.
152 is a bumpy 2 place trainer which I did enjoy flying but the 152 is a yugo with a 172 or a cherokee being a cadillac. Just my opinion. My biggest problem with the 152 was the size. I could barely get in the thing with my instructor and we were always overweight. Take the 160, I can take myself, my wife and my two kids, 50 gallons of fuel and even throw in a few bags. The 160 is much more stable, much more capable and much faster. Really not a fair comparison as the 152 fits a much different mission profile. A 172 would be a better comparison that would be fun to debate.
I was considering ATP and figured for the same amount of money I could end up owning a plane. I planned on buying a block of twin time at Ari-Ben when factoring things although I think I may change my mind on that.
Ownership is a great way to get your stuff.It is very cost effective as long as you dont buy a turd.And there are lots of "beautiful" turds out there.Pay to get a very thorough pre-buy inspection done.Not the guys mechanic that owns the plane.You might have to look at several before you find the right one,but the right one is out there. Good luck to you with whatever you decide.P.S. I might know of an Apache that could be had for $55,000.You could get a lot of multi time.:yup:,,T.C.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
You've definitely got me looking at them now.
I don't have the size problem you do - my CFI isn't a big guy and while I'm tall, I'm skinny, so weight's not a big deal in the plane for us.
However, what I would like to do sometime is take my Dad and a couple sets of golf clubs and fly somewhere to play, y'know? One of the reasons I didn't totally jump ship on my house and career was that I decided to take the slow path and do some pleasure flying, have some stories to tell before I start drinking from the firehose.
I really thought I wanted to be an RJ driver when I came here...but not really anymore.
$65/hr for a SE, doesn't sound very realistic if it costs ~$50/hr just for fuel and oil. What about maintence and everything else that goes into a flight schools costs. Considering also that you are going to need some of that SE time to go towards instrument training you are going to have to pay more for an IR rated plane too. I dont see how anyone can rent you a plane for less than it takes for them to operate it.
aerospacepilot
New Member
I fly in the SF Bay Area (one of the most expensive areas in the country to fly). I am a member of a flying club. The airplanes are hangared, and they are the best maintained aircraft I have ever seen in my life (I have flown at 3 different FBO's in CA and CO). All of them are IFR certified. And they have a good avionics package (dual nav/comms, dual vors, DME, ADF, GPS).
1980 C-172N rents for $80/hr tach. 0.8 tach usually gets you 1 hour of flight time, so I normally budget $64/hr. When doing takeoffs and landings, I have gotten 1.1 hours of flight time for 0.5 tach, or $37.50 (cost was $75/hr tach at the time).
2002 C-172SP rents for $90/hr tach, or $72/hr average.
Fuel is $4.65 a gallon where I am from. The 172N burns 8gph, and the 172SP burns 9gph, so $37.20 to $42 an hour worth of fuel. The rest of the cost goes towards maintenance, insurance, hangar rental (very expensive at this airport, there is a 30 year waiting list for a hangar), etc...
Of course flight schools cost more. But not that much. The FBO I fly out of in Colorado (yes they are an actual business) rents C-172N's for $81/hr, and C-172 (180hp) for $89/hr. Again, reasonable prices. You do not need to pay $140 an hour for a C-172SP. Just do some research, shop around, ask for a deal/discount, and you will be surprised how much money you can save on flight training.
1980 C-172N rents for $80/hr tach. 0.8 tach usually gets you 1 hour of flight time, so I normally budget $64/hr. When doing takeoffs and landings, I have gotten 1.1 hours of flight time for 0.5 tach, or $37.50 (cost was $75/hr tach at the time).
2002 C-172SP rents for $90/hr tach, or $72/hr average.
Fuel is $4.65 a gallon where I am from. The 172N burns 8gph, and the 172SP burns 9gph, so $37.20 to $42 an hour worth of fuel. The rest of the cost goes towards maintenance, insurance, hangar rental (very expensive at this airport, there is a 30 year waiting list for a hangar), etc...
Of course flight schools cost more. But not that much. The FBO I fly out of in Colorado (yes they are an actual business) rents C-172N's for $81/hr, and C-172 (180hp) for $89/hr. Again, reasonable prices. You do not need to pay $140 an hour for a C-172SP. Just do some research, shop around, ask for a deal/discount, and you will be surprised how much money you can save on flight training.
nkoenig
New Member
My wife and I are flying out to Kansas to check out career pilot school this weekend. I'm also comparing ATP and CPS. I'll let you guys know how my visit goes. I'm already leaning towards CPS because of the attitude they have towards training.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
I'll bet if you walked into your local FBO and made a $30K deposit and told them you wanted to fly M-F 9-5, they'd put you at the top of the schedule. You probably could even buy block rates on both airplanes and CFIs (and get free sim time) with that kind of coin. The highest paid skill in the world is negotiation. $30K is a pretty big bargianing chip.
Even if your local FBO doesn't have a complex single and a twin, you still can do your private single and instrument and get the bulk of the hours you need for commercial, then go to the next FBO that has the airplanes you need to finish.
Even if your local FBO doesn't have a complex single and a twin, you still can do your private single and instrument and get the bulk of the hours you need for commercial, then go to the next FBO that has the airplanes you need to finish.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
For my first 222.4 hrs I was a rental pilot. I rented C-150/152/172s & PA-28-140/151s. After that I bought a Grumman Yankee that my wife and I flew privately for 6 yrs, (I did my commercial and CFI training in it and taught my wife for her PPL in it) and then bought a Piper Seneca that I had on a lease-back to a flying club for about a year. Both buying and renting have value, depending on your goals.
Buying vs renting is one of those "the grass is always greener" syndromes. If you are considering this option I highly recommend you read Airplane Ownership. http://www.amazon.com/Airplane-Ownership-Ronald-J-Wanttaja/dp/0070681589/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200967362&sr=8-6 (There's a used one for $3.49 at Amazon.) You don't have to read very far into it when Ron explains why buying is more expensive than renting. That's the bottom line. Ron explains it all in great detail. There are a host of reasons to buy, but for the average pilot, saving money over rental price isn't one of them.
Having said that, there are ways to make buying cheaper than renting, but the key to it is flying often. It normally takes about 100 hrs per year to make buying a light GA airplane as cheap as renting, depending on a lot of factors. (That’s why a lot of planes are owned in partnership.) For me 100 hrs/yr was the break even number if I only considered the cost of each flight hour. If you are considering making your own "fast track" program using your own plane, then you might be able to do it cheaper by buying instead of renting. Might is the key word there. Buying a plane brings a host of unknowns that renting doesn't. If you rent an airplane for 100 hrs at $XXX/hr, then it's simple math. If you own a plane, then you have to break down costs into fixed and hourly and estimate how much it will cost you. (Oh, BTW most people over estimate how much they will fly and under estimate how much it will cost.) Fixed costs are those you pay no matter how much (if any) flying you do: insurance, tie-down/hangar, annual & calendar inspections (IFR cert, ADs, etc.), and opportunity cost (if you didn't pay cash, then add the interest payment -- if you did pay cash then add the interest you would have made with the purchase price in some interest bearing investment). Hourly expenses are gas, oil, maintenance (repairs to things you broke while flying -- tires, flap motors, brakes, air filters, etc.), and reserves for an engine overhaul, new paint, new avionics and new interior. (Every hour you fly an airplane it is worth less than it was the hour before, so you have to account for that loss by preparing to replace the things you use up.)
Start with the number of hours you expect to fly per month and go from there. You'll find out how many hours you have to fly to be cheaper than the rental. That’s exactly how the FBOs do it. Even though they pay more for commercial insurance and have to do 100 hr inspections, their airplanes probably fly more in a month than one you would buy. They may have 50 or so pilots rent one of their planes each month, while you will be the only one flying yours. (Good and bad.)
There are benefits to renting (other than fixed costs). What happens if the plane you are renting goes down for a few weeks? As long as there are several planes at your FBO it's no big deal. (Actually, there is some benefit to flying different airplanes, even if they are the same make & model.)
Your control over your cash flow is much easier to predict when you rent. For example, if your car gets totaled and you need money to buy a new one, you can stop flying for a short while and use your rental budget elsewhere. If you own a plane, there is only a portion of your expenses that will stop if you don't fly it (gas, oil, repairs & overhauls).
The obvious benefit of owning a plane is availability. As a rental pilot I had to compete with everyone else for the schedule. When I had my Yankee, I never had to check the schedule to see if it was available. As long as my wife wasn't flying it, I knew it was at the airport. Sometimes on the way home from work I'd stop at the airport for a little “post-work-stress therapy”. Often that therapy session was in the air, but sometimes it was just waxing the wings.
I had a pretty good track record with maintenance, but there were times when things broke and it would have been better on those occasions to be a renter. My wife was at the end of her 24th month since her written exam and had her private checkride scheduled when the carb heat cable broke. Had she been a rental pilot she could've rescheduled in another airplane. As it was, she had to take the written test over again. Another time my plane was damaged in a hurricane, and it took a few weeks to get it airworthy and 3 months to get it back into the original condition.
I wasn't so lucky with my Seneca. One day a pilot was preflighting it and noticed a tiny dark line in the engine casing. (The engine was 500 hrs SMOH on a 1800 TBO engine.) Further inspection determined it was a crack. The mechanic found another crack when he opened the casing, but this one was in the crankshaft. That and a few minor things that need replaced any time you open up the engine doubled the estimate to fix it and tripled the estimated time. In the end, it took 7 weeks and $10K to fix it. Meanwhile, I kept paying all my fixed costs while it sat in the hangar being fixed. 6 weeks later the CFI I fired for rushing me through my training landed it with the wheels up while rushing another student (I presume) through the landing checklist and that totaled it.
Personally, I loved owning an aircraft. Not because I could save money doing so, but for the benefits that owning a plane gave me. For me, it is a lifestyle choice. It’s just like owning a house vs renting. Renting is cheaper, but owning a house is a lifestyle choice. (That's why most people rent while in college and buy once they get married.) I would still own a plane today, but I got an invite from Uncle Sam to live in Japan. When I get back to the States buying a plane is at the top of my to-do list.
You may find that you can buy a good used plane, fly it every day for a few months and then sell it for part of what you paid for it and be further ahead, but this isn’t an option to be considered lightly. If you don’t want the plane at the end of your XXX hrs of flight time, then renting is probably a better option. Why? What happens if it takes you 6 months to sell it when you’re ready to move on? What happens if a new AD is issued that will force you to spend several hundred dollars to comply with it? What if a piston needs replaced? What if your muffler cracks and it’s $850 to fix it? What if a hurricane visits you and you need new canopy glass, trim tab, wing tip and a nose wheel pant even though it was tied down inside of a hangar? (I’ve lived through all these experiences.) If you’re an airplane owner, then it’s just part of the adventure of owning a plane of your own. If you’re a transient owner (i.e. rental pilot) then all of these things could spell disaster for you.
Please read Ron’s book. It’s the best advice I can give you.
Rob
My plane: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N9679L.html
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N25pa.html
brent p h
Well-Known Member
Point well taken....I have been researching and have found that ADS, or arlington municipal are fairly enticing. With the FBO option chosen I'm currently playing with the novel idea of walking in and plunking down 30 large to get all of my ratings. But with this type of financial transaction I can't help but reconniter past experiences of doing business without signing some sort of contract or written gaurantee. I believe this is one of the contributing factors that made a place like ATP so appealing.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
I would caution against dropping the whole 30 large at a small FBO, or anywhere really. Even ATP does not get ALL their money at once.
Tell them you are going to do it, maybe even drop 5 grand cash at a time, but don’t give them the whole nugget at once.
I can tell you from personal experience, the best situation can turn sour fast, so don’t line their pockets with ALL of your money. It has been darn lucky for me I followed my own advice recently.
Tell them you are going to do it, maybe even drop 5 grand cash at a time, but don’t give them the whole nugget at once.
- They have your money and there is less motivation to keep you happy once it is all in their hands.
- If they go bankrupt, they have all your money. Good luck getting it back.
- If, for some unforeseen reason, you cannot finish training there, they likely have a refund policy that will mean you don’t get all your money back.
I can tell you from personal experience, the best situation can turn sour fast, so don’t line their pockets with ALL of your money. It has been darn lucky for me I followed my own advice recently.