OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Ed, he wouldn't even have the plastic one
lost a buddy to Jet-U
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Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
HA! You're right. Fixed. 
Trip7
Well-Known Member
I bet you all the money I have that if you were an IOE instructor and had no clue of your new-hire's flight time you would not and could not tell the difference who's low time and who's not. Like Velo said and FNG is an FNG. The FO you talked about earlier was a poor pilot. Low time or high time, most people improve after time. If not, there is an inner problem no amount of experience can fix.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
I wont completely disagree with you. Someone entirely new to an airframe, regardless of how much flight experience they have is going to suck. However, actual piloting and (what seems to be sorely lacking lately) instrument/navigation skill is obvious after a couple of flights. Once they're off IOE and flying the line regularly is when the experience would really begin to show.
Yes he was, and contrary to the argument against low time pilots, he was actually a higher time (using the current definition of higher time - 1500 hrs range) former corporate guy. Goes to show that sometime, no matter how many hours you have, you may still be a lousy pilot and in that case you definitely have no place in an airline cockpit. Some folks are better than others. There may be a guy or girl who can safely operate a commercial airliner at a mere 200 hrs of flying experience. Doesn't mean they should. There are probably more than quite a few who can't. They definitely should not. I lean toward the conservative and prefer to keep both of these categories out of the cockpit. Sorry.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
That's never been the issue, decision making skills are the issue at hand.
Would you trust a 10 year old to drive a car? What if they were really awesome. Ok now would you trust said 10 year old to drive your mother around? Why not? The 10 year old might drive as well as me, but I can assure you that I'm a better driver in the long run because I won't do anything too stupid in the car and through years of experience, have made more decisions in a car.
A 121 cockpit is a place of business, not a place for a dual cross country. As you'll find, you make enough mistakes in any given flight to begin with, you don't need to compound those mistakes with a lack of experience.
Hence, why flight instructing time is more valuable than aerial photography time; you've been making decisions.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Lol, a 10 yr old is not an adult. Their brain hasn't fully matured. Still I might trust the 10 yr old if he was accompanied at all times by a seasoned driver with dual controls
What decision making does the FO make? Sure he can chime in with his two cents but the Captain decision is King. Single pilot operations you guys have a very good point. Thats why 135 mins are 1200 or lots people would be hitting the cumulus granite. But in the cockpit of a 121 airliner besides pure IFR skills CRM skills come next. Even though the captain's decision is King he would be a fool to not use all available resources. There's dispatch, there's the FO, maintenance. Each and every flight operated in the 121 world is a team effort, not something thrown upon the shoulder's of an FO's decision making skills.
Without a doubt, the quality of applicants coming out these days are much worse than before. I believe this has to due mainly to a lack of instrument skills due to most of them being CFIs putting around the pattern and doing VFR cross country after cross country in the middle of nowhere. At my university instrument and multi students came on a seniority basis for instructors. Most boost their instrument skills in the freight world. Now that this step can be bypassed, herein lies a problem when someone comes from barely being able to shoot approaches in a 172 to now attempting to do in a large transport category aircraft. Thats why HR departments have stepped in and said whoa sally, before we waste too much money we need to "bridge this gap" and the birth of the bridge program. Basically a instrument refresher course on steroids. Systems stuff is just thrown in there to look good. Anybody can pass that stuff. If systems were the problem there would be no sim part of these bridge courses.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
LOL!. Sorry, but you guys crack me up with this talk of serious decisions being made by CFIs. The guy flying aerial photography has just as valuable experience as the guy instructing. Stop patting yourself on the back for your instructing time.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
How will the FO know if the Captain made the right decision. They might not want to step up if they are not sure they are right.Lol, a 10 yr old is not an adult. Their brain hasn't fully matured. Still I might trust the 10 yr old if he was accompanied at all times by a seasoned driver with dual controls
What decision making does the FO make? Sure he can chime in with his two cents but the Captain decision is King. Single pilot operations you guys have a very good point. Thats why 135 mins are 1200 or lots people would be hitting the cumulus granite. But in the cockpit of a 121 airliner besides pure IFR skills CRM skills come next. Even though the captain's decision is King he would be a fool to not use all available resources. There's dispatch, there's the FO, maintenance. Each and every flight operated in the 121 world is a team effort, not something thrown upon the shoulder's of an FO's decision making skills.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Lol, a 10 yr old is not an adult. Their brain hasn't fully matured. Still I might trust the 10 yr old if he was accompanied at all times by a seasoned driver with dual controls
What decision making does the FO make? Sure he can chime in with his two cents but the Captain decision is King. Single pilot operations you guys have a very good point. Thats why 135 mins are 1200 or lots people would be hitting the cumulus granite. But in the cockpit of a 121 airliner besides pure IFR skills CRM skills come next. Even though the captain's decision is King he would be a fool to not use all available resources. There's dispatch, there's the FO, maintenance. Each and every flight operated in the 121 world is a team effort, not something thrown upon the shoulder's of an FO's decision making skills.
Depends on the captain! I've had captains that are micromanagers and will tell me how to do everything I do in the cockpit, literally commanding everything that happens. I've had some captains say to me, "Well, you're a fully qualified crew member, so unless you're about to crash the airplane, you fly this ship how you want to. On your legs, it's your airplane."
This concept that we should rely on the captain to make decisions in a faulty one, BTW. If the captain only needed you to pull gear you would do exactly that. Instead, the aircraft requires two people to operate and you need to work together as a crew to input ideas to make the flight happen safely. There's no way the captain can do it all, and first officers have important responsibilities too.
Further, it's been said before and I'll say it again; the captain will kill you if you let him. To take THAT one step further, YOU will kill the captain if he lets you. You are BOTH required to be there, and while there's a learning curve as an FO, you still need to be able to think for yourself.
Trust me, you'll be singing the praises of saving your captains butt, the time you spent at Skymates and all that other jazz in a few months.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
I know some old time AF pilots who CFI on the side and they all seem to think being a CFI or IP will make you a better pilot.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
They won't have the experience to determine that based just on some right-seat Cessna time teaching people how to do slow flight either. Sorry, but that sort of judgment and experience only comes from flying 121 for an extended period of time. Your flight instructing experience is of little use to your Captain when real decisions need to be made.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
That's just not true PCL. To think that implies you're not (weren't) making the most of your FOs as a CRM resource which goes entirely against what you just finished arguing!!
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Glad I can brighten your day and make you laugh! But as usual, the people that didn't instruct are always the harshest critics. HR departments and training departments agree; flight instructing time is some of the most valuable time you can put in your logbook.
I can honestly say I had my steepest learning curve during my first 100 hours of dual given. I've never been thrown to the wolves like that. Training at my last job and my current job pale in comparison to what my students threw at me on a daily basis. I've had to make more "go/no go decisions" while flight instructing (things were a lot more structured in the 135 environment, we were either legal or we were not) that were going to affect people's lives than I have since then. Figuring out when to solo a guy? I can't think of a larger combination of factors to try to consider. Figuring out how to get through a line of thunderstorms? There's a hole, or there isn't. Figuring out weight restrictions? You can either take the people, or you can't.
And to tell you the truth I can't wait to get back to teaching. Once I upgrade I'll be putting in for online check airman as soon as I possibly can.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Apparently you haven't been paying attention. I did instruct. I was about to apply for my gold seal cert when I got the job at Pinch-a-nickel. I found the time instructing to be interesting, and I loved teaching, but there was little to be gained for airline environment decision making from it. Far too many former instructors love to pat themselves on the back for their instructing experience and disparage those that didn't instruct. Some of the finest copilots I flew with had never instructed. My best friend is a check airmen at Pinnacle who never held a CFI certificate in his life. Instructing is all well and good, but it's not the all-important thing that you make it out to be.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
To the contrary, I think you'd find that most of my copilots would say that I created an excellent CRM environment in the cockpit. Many times I changed my mind about something because of opinions offered by my FOs. However, the copilot is not the one making the decisions. He is there to offer his opinions to the Captain. The Captain is the one making the decisions. I would value the opinion of a 1500 hour copilot who had never instructed but spent most of his time flying 121 more than I would value the opinion of a newhire who had 1500 hours of dual given. The experience is simply not comparable.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Right, the difference is I think you've got this idea that the captain is infailable. He's not in any way, and WILL make mistakes.
Do you know enough to step up and stop him? How do you know whether he's making a bad decision or not? Instructing helped me not only polish my BS sensors, it helped me develop ways to tactfully point out something that may be a problem.
Like you could say...
"Hey skipper, you REALLY wanna do that? 'Cause we're both gonna get hauled into the chief pilot's office when you manage that #### up."
Or
"Hey skipper, the books says that we should be doing X and we're not, maybe we should talk about X more."
Instructing instructing instructing. My students turned me into the pilot I am, not the trainers.
Do you know enough to step up and stop him? How do you know whether he's making a bad decision or not? Instructing helped me not only polish my BS sensors, it helped me develop ways to tactfully point out something that may be a problem.
Like you could say...
"Hey skipper, you REALLY wanna do that? 'Cause we're both gonna get hauled into the chief pilot's office when you manage that #### up."
Or
"Hey skipper, the books says that we should be doing X and we're not, maybe we should talk about X more."
Instructing instructing instructing. My students turned me into the pilot I am, not the trainers.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I have been paying attention actually, but thanks again for making sure.
I gained TONS from my part 91 and 135 teaching experiences that I brought into the 121 world.
Check it out boss, all you're saying is that instructing doesn't do anything for the 121 environment, but you're not really citing any examples. You used the entire bolded section above to simply restate that instructors talk themselves up too much and cited an example of a pilot who wasn't an instructor yet a good pilot. In fact you didn't even say he was a good pilot, just that he was your best friend. You didn't say why, you didn't say how they gained their experience, you simply make the implication that they listened to the captain and got his coffee and through osmosis eventually became awesome.
But that's not how people learn. People learn by getting into things, making mistakes and doing things on their own, not by being a puppet to a captain. I've learned from captains who are mentors, not from guys that lecture.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Again you say they can't be compared, but you don't cite any examples. I could give you a laundry list if you'd like. There are TONS of similarities between what we do in a 121 cockpit vs. part 91 flight instructing. In fact, here we go.
-You have to make weather decisions. How much is too much wind for the student? How much time do they need until they solo. How good are those stalls, and do you trust your student to not kill themselves when they solo and acidently stall the aircraft? What if they do something unexpected? Will they know how to get themselves out of a bad situation?
-How many broken parts of an airplane are too many?
-Is density altitude too high? The book says it'll fly, but you may know better.
-Is it a good idea to do touch and goes in a twin? The FAA says no, but everybody else does. Should you?
-How close do we get to that thunderstorm with no radar? It's clear and a million around it, but how close can we get before we get our butts handed to us?
Should I keep going? I've dealt with all of these things in the 121 environment. Do you do a flex takeoff just beacuse the numbers work? What if there's sheer? What if it's just too gusty for you? Is a go around a good idea? How do you tell the captain that this approach just isn't shaping up without pissing him off for the next 4 days (or more so, explain afterwards)? How close do we get to the line?
As I've said before, I trust the guy next to me about as far as I can throw him, and we have a small cockpit. We're a team, and we figure out answers to problems TOGETHER. If I was just there to listen to him, I'd be called an intern and not a required crew member.