lost a buddy to Jet-U

I never really did the whole flying around the patch thing. We went all over the place once I got them soloed. I did the same thing that 777 did during instrument training. After they learned all of the basics, we went everywhere. It was just as good for me as it was for my students.


Exactly! When instructing, this was my strategy as well.

Most training flights involved cross-country planning, shooting approaches at various class B/C airports. Time can be used effectively, if planned properly, during cross-country training flights. It's more than just punching holes in the sky at distances greater than 50nm. In fact, the secondary skills (large airport/ busy airspace communication, flying approaches fast as possible to mesh w/ jet traffic, general familiarity w/ NAS, increasing cross-country time) gained are equally as important (if not more so) to improving IFR skills as simply shooting approaches over and over again at your local airport.

My $.02
 
Come on now, don't put words in my mouth. Is anything I said untrue? You've been posting from a pretty high pedestal lately, that's all, and I know I'm not the only one who's noticed. For someone with a degree in arguing, I'm just surprised at how often your message is getting lost in the over dramatic delivery lately.

So how about it- I'll stop being a • and buy the first round next time if you stop being so dramatic? :D :cwm27:

Yeah a few things you said were untrue. Captain doesn't have quotation marks around it, so I if I wasn't a captain I musta been an intern 'cause I sure as heck wasn't a first officer.

The number of FO's in the system on one hand? Are you joking man? We had 10 out of 20 people in the indoc class being FO's at points. You might not have seen them in your base on your equipment, but they were in the system.

Check it out dude, this is how I see things.

If I post my experience and don't back it up, I'm a n00b that doesn't know what he's talking about and I'm just mouthing off.

If I post my experience and DO back it up, I'm a n00b that's just trying to mouth off and prove to the world that I know everything.

If I don't post my experience, I'm being a • bag by sitting here and thinking, "Huh, well I saw that happen once but just in case anybody doesn't like what I have to say I might as well keep my mouth shut."

If I cite my experience I'm bragging.

If I don't cite my experience I don't know what I'm talking about and need to STFU.

No matter what I do, somebody will tell me the STFU and then somebody else will send me an IM saying, "Bro great post."

To be extremely honest with you, I don't care what anybody thinks of me if they've only had interaction with me through the intarweb. They don't know me, don't know a thing about me, don't know my experiences, don't know my tone of voice and to be real honest if they want to have a problem with me, I don't care.

If somebody is that immature then I've got no time for them. Waiting until you actually meet somebody is probably the better way to form judgments on people and as I've said in the past, the folks I argue with on here the most are almost always the people I get along with the best.

And if I offend somebody? Alright, that's fine! I'm not trying to, and they could simply ask for me to clarify myself and I'll happily do so until we have some consensus on the issue. That's what we used to have on these forums and to be honest with you it pisses me off that it's gone these days. It used to be FL270 would post something incredibly offensive and I'd say, "Hold on wait Russ, is that what you really meant" and instead of pissing on each other (well, ok we did that sometimes too) there would be some discussion on the issue at hand, we'd cite examples from our past history in whatever topic we were talking about so we all had a frame of reference and then we'd move on to the next topic. It might get heated but me and Russ never thought ill of each other in any way. We were passionate about what we thought and that's great! I'd rather have a conversation with him than somebody that isn't trying to offend anybody.

That's not happening anymore. You can't make everybody happy with every post, and I'm not even going to try. People will post whatever they do and if this place is going to return to any kind of civility we'll all (myself included) start responding with, "Hey did you really mean X, or something else? 'Cause it's not too clear!" instead of, "#$%(*#($*#( NOOB DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT! RJ'S SUCK! ALL THE REGIONAL SUCK! MESA SUCKS! YOU'RE ALL GOING TO BURN! STFU AND DON'T POST AN OPINION ON AN INTERNET MESSAGE FORUM!!!!!"

So now do I go ahead and comment on the rest of the thread? Because there are some good things being said, but of course I think that part 135 flying prepares people better than anything else for the jump to the 121 environment, and in my experience the way Amflight ran their ship and the way ExpressJet runs their company isn't so different as to think 121 pilots are gods among men. Or is that going to offend somebody?
 
These never ending PFJ and PFT threads are sad. My read on this is as follows:

Is it the 250 hour wonder kid, or in this case 190 hour kid - fault that they are inflicted with SJS and want to skip all the "traditional" ways of gaining experience/time? Not really.

Is it the regional airline's fault that they will allow a wet ticket commercial student (for accuracy that's the best word to describe them) into their training program and onto the line? Not really.

Is it these cheesy "RJ Course" places that provide pre RJ ground school and some sim time to these kids fault? Not really.

Personally, I think the fault lies within the antiquated system - namely the FAA. The 250 hour requirement for a commercial is outdated as the world is a very different place today than it was when many of the FAR's were written. Many regulations, including the licensing of pilots, were the result of the Air Commerce Act in 1926. Flying was still in a relative infancy stage compared to where it is today. I doubt anyone back then would have imagined there would be tubes flying around at 35,000' and 500 miles an hour with a bunch of people in them. The problem lies with the fact many of the rules have not evolved hand in hand with the times.

Personally, I think with the type of equipment flown today vs. what was flown back then - the time requirement should be raised. 250 hours to become a CFI is fine. I think that while a student is learning the basics from a CFI, the CFI is learning a considerable amount while CFI'ing. I think the ME rating should only be available after someone has flown 500 hours total time - and to be able to fly a turbine powered a/c should require a minimum of 1,000 hours TT and 200 hours multi.

The fault doesn't lie with Cherokee Cruiser, he's just a product of the system. I view JET U and all the other "RJ schools" as pay for training / pay for job enterprises. And to see the amount of money spent on these "schools" to get a 20k/year job is staggering.

What is most concerning to me, is the impact of those types of folks on the flying industry as a whole. If your willing to give up 35k on an RJ school to start your career - what will you be willing to give up/sell out during your career, and what effect will that have on those not willing to sell out?
 
1000 and 200?!? 500TT for ME rating!?!? Minimums?!? Not only is that way too high, thats not even realistic. Never will happen.
 
1000 and 200?!? 500TT for ME rating!?!? Minimums?!? Not only is that way too high, thats not even realistic. Never will happen.

Never said it would happen, it's just my opinion of where the minimums should be, take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure folks with some time under their belts would agree, while the Gen X low time kids would..............probably respond like your response. Believe it or not, it wasn't too many years ago that the base regional minimum requirements were 1200 & 200. Can you imagine that - a whopping 1200, how did we all survive?:sarcasm:
 
Airline Transport Pilot to transport people for an airline.

Thats my opinion, I welcome yours.


Mr. Maximus, I nominate your post for post of the week.
 
These never ending PFJ and PFT threads are sad. My read on this is as follows:

Is it the 250 hour wonder kid, or in this case 190 hour kid - fault that they are inflicted with SJS and want to skip all the "traditional" ways of gaining experience/time? Not really.

Is it the regional airline's fault that they will allow a wet ticket commercial student (for accuracy that's the best word to describe them) into their training program and onto the line? Not really.

Is it these cheesy "RJ Course" places that provide pre RJ ground school and some sim time to these kids fault? Not really.

Personally, I think the fault lies within the antiquated system - namely the FAA. The 250 hour requirement for a commercial is outdated as the world is a very different place today than it was when many of the FAR's were written. Many regulations, including the licensing of pilots, were the result of the Air Commerce Act in 1926. Flying was still in a relative infancy stage compared to where it is today. I doubt anyone back then would have imagined there would be tubes flying around at 35,000' and 500 miles an hour with a bunch of people in them. The problem lies with the fact many of the rules have not evolved hand in hand with the times.

Personally, I think with the type of equipment flown today vs. what was flown back then - the time requirement should be raised. 250 hours to become a CFI is fine. I think that while a student is learning the basics from a CFI, the CFI is learning a considerable amount while CFI'ing. I think the ME rating should only be available after someone has flown 500 hours total time - and to be able to fly a turbine powered a/c should require a minimum of 1,000 hours TT and 200 hours multi.

The fault doesn't lie with Cherokee Cruiser, he's just a product of the system. I view JET U and all the other "RJ schools" as pay for training / pay for job enterprises. And to see the amount of money spent on these "schools" to get a 20k/year job is staggering.

What is most concerning to me, is the impact of those types of folks on the flying industry as a whole. If your willing to give up 35k on an RJ school to start your career - what will you be willing to give up/sell out during your career, and what effect will that have on those not willing to sell out?


You know Mr. Maximus....generally I don't agree w/ much you have to say.......but this post is spot on! Do I think it's realistic....probably not. However, the FAA, like most big-government agencies, is antiquated at best. As such, a major overhaul is, without question, in order. Not sure how to overhaul the government, though.



Regardless of what I think, or you might think. If we ever meet....I'd be happy to have the first round on me!
 
Yeah a few things you said were untrue. Captain doesn't have quotation marks around it, so I if I wasn't a captain I musta been an intern 'cause I sure as heck wasn't a first officer.

The number of FO's in the system on one hand? Are you joking man? We had 10 out of 20 people in the indoc class being FO's at points. You might not have seen them in your base on your equipment, but they were in the system.

At AMF if you didn't fly the line, being called a Captain is a meaningless statement. Actualy in my opinion if you are the PIC of a single pilot airplane, being called a Captain falls in line with a guy drinking a wine cooler, you should question it.

Box hauler, check marauder, crazy bastage, idiot, anti social night freak (that's for you Marsh) are all more adapt to the cargo job name and worn proudly by most, Since my white shirts have grease stains and dirt spots the size of my computer and the most contact I would prefer to have with somebody is to get my clearance I really don't consider myself a Captain, transportation specialist and professional hotel shower conniseur sound better. :drool:

You were an instructor, that's all. That being said you were an instructor doing very specialized training teaching a group of specialized skills to applicants for an employment opportunity.

In my year of line instruction at AMF I have seen 3 FO's as students, and flown with 7 FO's total in three years. Two of the three FO's who were my students had more skill and knowledge then some of the Captain trainee's.
One was a flat out great pilot who had more total time than you and me and probably Marsh combined but no Multi. All single engine alaska flying, great story's, strong IFR skills sharp and on top of it. He used the FO program to get 50 hours cheaply and quickly then hired on at AMF as a Captain, spent a year and went to Horizon, made it through their CRJ training program with no problems at all.
-Brian
 
You still flying the tube up there in Portland?

EDIT: And how the heck did you see an FO as an online training captain? My understanding was that all their training was done down in Burbank except for maybe the tube?
 
yeah i'm still hurtling myself through moderate icing conditions in a cold aluminum death device, I went system TDY about 5 months ago, spent one rotation in SLC then I wound up back in PDX for all of peak. Got to spend an entire two weeks out of that time in the metro, then the rest of the time in a 99. Wasn't too thrilled about it but it could have been worse, I could have been in Ottawa.

Oh wait, that's where I am now!

When I was doing the line training stuff I saw only the FO's that were meant to be PDX based. BUR at that time was swamped and I was getting 2 students at a time occasionaly or back to back people, sign off one then get one day to myself followed by a new student on the next day.
 
Hey if you ever end up in SLC TDY give me a shout, when I'm not driving the pencil jet in Newark I live out there. I'm willing to bet we know a lot of the same people.
 
Will do, I'm coming up on the last part of my tenure here at AMF. I finally through no consequence of working here managed to put together a life and I would like to start living it. This schedule of being home for one week a month isn't really conducive to that unfortunately, which is sad. I will really miss instinctively ducking my head every time the props shed some ice against the fuselage. Lots of good people I will miss here, that's one of the things that keeps me around.

I would imagine we know way too many of the same people, although anybody who has been hired here in the last year or so I have no clue about anymore. I feel like one of them old people who can't remember anybody's names or doesn't recognize faces. Is that a bad sign?:panic:
 
These never ending PFJ and PFT threads are sad. My read on this is as follows:

Is it the 250 hour wonder kid, or in this case 190 hour kid - fault that they are inflicted with SJS and want to skip all the "traditional" ways of gaining experience/time? Not really.

Is it the regional airline's fault that they will allow a wet ticket commercial student (for accuracy that's the best word to describe them) into their training program and onto the line? Not really.

Is it these cheesy "RJ Course" places that provide pre RJ ground school and some sim time to these kids fault? Not really.

Personally, I think the fault lies within the antiquated system - namely the FAA. The 250 hour requirement for a commercial is outdated as the world is a very different place today than it was when many of the FAR's were written. Many regulations, including the licensing of pilots, were the result of the Air Commerce Act in 1926. Flying was still in a relative infancy stage compared to where it is today. I doubt anyone back then would have imagined there would be tubes flying around at 35,000' and 500 miles an hour with a bunch of people in them. The problem lies with the fact many of the rules have not evolved hand in hand with the times.

Personally, I think with the type of equipment flown today vs. what was flown back then - the time requirement should be raised. 250 hours to become a CFI is fine. I think that while a student is learning the basics from a CFI, the CFI is learning a considerable amount while CFI'ing. I think the ME rating should only be available after someone has flown 500 hours total time - and to be able to fly a turbine powered a/c should require a minimum of 1,000 hours TT and 200 hours multi.

The fault doesn't lie with Cherokee Cruiser, he's just a product of the system. I view JET U and all the other "RJ schools" as pay for training / pay for job enterprises. And to see the amount of money spent on these "schools" to get a 20k/year job is staggering.

What is most concerning to me, is the impact of those types of folks on the flying industry as a whole. If your willing to give up 35k on an RJ school to start your career - what will you be willing to give up/sell out during your career, and what effect will that have on those not willing to sell out?

I completely agree that the FAA's system for pilot licensing is antiquated, however I see it having different effects on its practicality in the modern aviation world.

I think the problem lies in the type of experience required for certain levels of employment. It always baffled me to look at the differences between 121 mins and 135 mins for example (and yes I do realize the factor of who is really in charge in a 121 situation, and him needing 1500 hours at minimum, but still, I question the dripping wet ticket multi comm guy sitting right seat in a passenger carrying jet).

I think the total time requirements are largely useless in today's world. For instance, what good does it do to fly 100 hours of cross country time building in VFR conditions, going point A to point B by means of GPS direct navigation, flying by autopilot in terms of pilot development (sure, you get experience in the system, if flying IFR, you should be using sectionals and en routes, but plenty of guys don't and just throw point B into the 430 and go)? Days like that Joe Blow logs 8 hours, hand flew for half an hour, and made 2 landings, all in visual conditions. Sure, I may be describing a best case scenario, but how often does time building go something like that? I'd argue, "quite often." Its also why I strongly feel students at CPS have a distinct advantage over guys flying in Florida or other "perfect flying" locales, with our weather in KS. Our students get a decent chunk of actual IFR experience, make gusty, crosswind landings frequently, have to study weather forecasts for severe weather which we actually get, etc. Now, 50 years ago, those cross country requirements ensured you were actually learning something during your time boring holes in the sky, today it may or may not.

I'd like to see time requirements, sure, but time requirements that ensure the student is actually learning. Say, for a commercial certificate, combine the requirement of single and multi engine into one requirement for a commercial rating, have total hour requirements for experience, but spell out the kind of experience required (other than say, 50 hours X-C greater than 50 miles PIC)- i.e. X many hours of flight within the IFR system, X many hours of actual IFR experience, combine training into the total time requirements- essentially distill the time requirements into sections that ensure continued progress.

Also, pointing out how antiquated the system is, 99% of new pilots do all their training on light, single and multi engine piston airplanes. They get lots of time in them, but the step up into a turbine powered, transport class aircraft is a completely different world. This is where training for a jet cockpit environment comes into play. (Obviously I realize its simply not possible to give a student pilot 50 hours of time actually flying a light jet, let alone a CRJ or ERJ- heck its practically impossible to give actual flight time in a small turboprop)

To me, this is where the MPL does hold some water. Just about every hour logged under those programs is structured training. I'd like to see a system that combines the structured training of an MPL environment, with the real world experience of actual cross country flying, where the pilot flying has to make real world, time critical decisions.

I would say to look toward the military for inspiration on how a modern pilot training operation should work.

What I'd really like to see, is a structured, progressive way of getting new pilots into ever increasingly complex (and larger) aircraft, step by step. While there are some people who move from a flight instructor to flying SIC on a charter operation, and then move up from there, the supply and demand just doesn't allow that kind of progression for most new pilots. The supply and demand does, however, provide plenty of new jobs in jet powered, transport class aircraft, and thats where a lot of new pilots go, right or wrong. So, to me, the question becomes how to best deal with the reality of the situation, and put the most qualified new pilots into the front of the aircraft that need pilots to fly them.
 
OldTownPilot,

"Airline Transport Pilot to transport people for an airline" has to be one of the most simplistic and litterally brilliant things I've heard in a while. I may have to adopt that (with your permission) on the bottom of my pages.


Cruise,

Friends can always agree to disagree with no harm done. It would be a privilege to tip one with you.
 
These never ending PFJ and PFT threads are sad. My read on this is as follows:

Is it the 250 hour wonder kid, or in this case 190 hour kid - fault that they are inflicted with SJS and want to skip all the "traditional" ways of gaining experience/time? Not really.

Is it the regional airline's fault that they will allow a wet ticket commercial student (for accuracy that's the best word to describe them) into their training program and onto the line? Not really.

Is it these cheesy "RJ Course" places that provide pre RJ ground school and some sim time to these kids fault? Not really.

Personally, I think the fault lies within the antiquated system - namely the FAA. The 250 hour requirement for a commercial is outdated as the world is a very different place today than it was when many of the FAR's were written. Many regulations, including the licensing of pilots, were the result of the Air Commerce Act in 1926. Flying was still in a relative infancy stage compared to where it is today. I doubt anyone back then would have imagined there would be tubes flying around at 35,000' and 500 miles an hour with a bunch of people in them. The problem lies with the fact many of the rules have not evolved hand in hand with the times.

Personally, I think with the type of equipment flown today vs. what was flown back then - the time requirement should be raised. 250 hours to become a CFI is fine. I think that while a student is learning the basics from a CFI, the CFI is learning a considerable amount while CFI'ing. I think the ME rating should only be available after someone has flown 500 hours total time - and to be able to fly a turbine powered a/c should require a minimum of 1,000 hours TT and 200 hours multi.

The fault doesn't lie with Cherokee Cruiser, he's just a product of the system. I view JET U and all the other "RJ schools" as pay for training / pay for job enterprises. And to see the amount of money spent on these "schools" to get a 20k/year job is staggering.

What is most concerning to me, is the impact of those types of folks on the flying industry as a whole. If your willing to give up 35k on an RJ school to start your career - what will you be willing to give up/sell out during your career, and what effect will that have on those not willing to sell out?


Excellent Post!
 
OldTownPilot,

"Airline Transport Pilot to transport people for an airline" has to be one of the most simplistic and litterally brilliant things I've heard in a while. I may have to adopt that (with your permission) on the bottom of my pages.


Cruise,

Friends can always agree to disagree with no harm done. It would be a privilege to tip one with you.

Be my guest.
 
Question for all:

Would you rather put your child in a Piper Seminole with a 200 hr MEI with the ink dripping wet on his/her certificate or an Embraer 145 with a 200hr FO in the right seat?

I chose option 2.
 
Question for all:

Would you rather put your child in a Piper Seminole with a 200 hr MEI with the ink dripping wet on his/her certificate or an Embraer 145 with a 200hr FO in the right seat?

I chose option 2.


Is that the same as asking if I'd rather put my child in a situation that is asbsolutely normal and proper (seminole) vs one that is also now normal and legal but for all intents and purposes really stretching it (an airplane certificated to be opearted by two pilots but in that case really only having one)? I choose option 1.

I may be somewhat conceited and a braggart and have a high opinion of my flying ability but I know that I can't do everything on my own all the time. Murphy's Law says that when I really need to have that other person in the crew I'll have that 250 or 200 hr wonder in the right seat who's not worth the piece of paper his FAA certificate is printed on.
 
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