definition of instrument training

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vabantha

New Member
I have a student who is ready for his 141 instrument checkride and there seems to be some debate around the office whether he has enough hours.
The question is: does he need 35 hours of instrument time (actual/simulated, FTD) or just 35 hours of training from a CFII? It seems to me that when the FAR's want instrument time, simulated or otherwise, they spell it out pretty clearly, as in 61.65(d)(2). A couple other instructors are telling me that he needs 35 hours of "hood" time. Any thoughts?
 
For 141 he just has to meet the requirements of your approved TCO.

If it calls for 35 simulated/actual, then he needs that. If it calls for 35 hours of training, then he needs that.

-mini
 
Part 141 spells it out as clearly as Part 61. Appendix C to Part 141 (minimum curriculum for the instrument rating) says:

==============================
141xC.4. Flight training.
(a) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d) of this section, appropriate to the instrument-aircraft category and class rating for which the course applies:
(1) 35 hours of instrument training if the course is for an initial instrument rating.
(2) 15 hours of instrument training if the course is for an additional instrument rating.
==============================
 
Right, but it says nothing about instrument time, unlike part 61. If you look at part d of 141 appendix C it includes things such as preflight preparation, preflight procedures, postflight. Obviously, these things aren't done "under the hood" so the question remains; what is the actual definition of instrument training for the 35 hour requirement?


MidlifeFlyer said:
Part 141 spells it out as clearly as Part 61. Appendix C to Part 141 (minimum curriculum for the instrument rating) says:

==============================
141xC.4. Flight training.
(a) Each approved course must include at least the following flight training on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d) of this section, appropriate to the instrument-aircraft category and class rating for which the course applies:
(1) 35 hours of instrument training if the course is for an initial instrument rating.
(2) 15 hours of instrument training if the course is for an additional instrument rating.
==============================
Click to expand...
 
Look at (a) again. Each approved training course is the key here. I think you are looking at the FAR and trying to find your answer....just like you would for part 61. Not possible to do with 141 as each 141 training course was submitted to the FAA and approved on an individual basis, using the 141 guidelines in the FAR as basic guidelines.

You will need to go to the school what this person went to and see what 141 program was approved and then bounce off of that what was accomplished.

The FAR lists generalizations for 141 but not specifics.

Otherwise, you could apply the work done for the IRA under the 141 program and apply it towards part 61 regulations to achieve the IRA.

Clear as mud?
 
(10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions.


(16) Training time means training received—
(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;
(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or
(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
 
vabantha said:
Right, but it says nothing about instrument time, unlike part 61. If you look at part d of 141 appendix C it includes things such as preflight preparation, preflight procedures, postflight. Obviously, these things aren't done "under the hood" so the question remains; what is the actual definition of instrument training for the 35 hour requirement?
Click to expand...

What does your TCO/Syllabus say? Does it require 35 hours of hood time (highly unlikely)? Remember, your Syllabus has been approved and has the same weight (as far as content and flight times) as the regs. You need just look there and it should tell you everything you want to know. Really, that should have been covered in your 141 "checkride".

FWIW, the syllabus I wrote (and got 141 approved) did not require 35 hours of instrument "time". It required 36 hours of "flight time" for the training. So, basically 36 hours of block-to-block is all our students needed.

I have a feeling your syllabus is written in a similar manner.

-mini
 
Cessnaflyer said:
(10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions.


(16) Training time means training received—
(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;
(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or
(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
Thanks, that definition is what I was looking for. To all saying "look at the syllabus" that was the first place I looked and the reason for my initial question (notice the subject line). It merely said 35 hrs instrument training.


Cessnaflyer said:
(10) Instrument training means that time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions.


(16) Training time means training received—
(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;
(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or
(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.
Click to expand...
 
I have signed off students with 35 hours of total time towards the part 141 syllabus, but less simulated/actual, obviously. The examiner wasn't going to take it, but I made him call the FAA and whoever he spoke with in OKC said it was fine.
 
mojo6911 said:
I have signed off students with 35 hours of total time towards the part 141 syllabus, but less simulated/actual, obviously. The examiner wasn't going to take it, but I made him call the FAA and whoever he spoke with in OKC said it was fine.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's our FSDO's take on it. They are ok with defining instrument training as beginning and ending with the same definition as flight time, ie, from start of movement to stop, as long as the hood time is "reasonably close" to the total flight time. Instrument/nav checks and clearances, and such are all a part of any instrument training program. It's in the PTS. How can you demand a proficiency check on an item and not allow the training time for that item to count? Talk that over with your local legal beagal.
As long as it is not abused and IRA applicants are not showing a systemic deficiency on instrument checkrides.
 
vabantha said:
Thanks, that definition is what I was looking for. To all saying "look at the syllabus" that was the first place I looked and the reason for my initial question (notice the subject line). It merely said 35 hrs instrument training.
Click to expand...
Does the syllabus specify any amount of actual or simulated instrument conditions time?

-mini
 
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