Haven't seen it posted here yet:
- Thread starter B767
- Start date
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Sorry KLB, but this is a pure load of Bantha Fodder...It always has been and it always will be. Sitting in the right seat of a 172 CFI'ing is more or less doing the same exact flight over and over and over and over again. Telling a student "right rudder, right rudder....RIGHT rudder!" for 1000 hours is not going to prepare you for the right seat of an RJ...
There is no logical reasoning for this position. The two are night and day. It's like comparing flying fire attack with basket weaving ( ok, so not that extreme...I'm be overdramatic to make a point). Though your academic abilities and knowledge will certainly be superior, and perhaps your scan...to a degree. Your adaptability to work in a CRM based cockpit flying a systems intensive transport category aircraft will by no means be more enhanced by flight instructing. We get plenty of 1000 to even 2000 hour CFI's come through our program and interestingly enough a lot of them bite it hard and wash out..primary reason is arrogance...secondary reason is they are no more prepared for 121 flying then the 250 hour fresh RJ course grad. You can either do it or you can't.
The only kind of experience that will really give you an edge up is something like part 135 crew based flying. Lot's of single pilot IFR stuff may even hinder you to a degree as you will have to start thinking in a way that divides everything you used to do on your own in two.
The CFI argument has always been a filtering criteria for airlines that really...just don't like you...and don't want to hire you. Sorry to be so blunt..but I hate this argument...it's about as logical as a Vulcan on crack!!
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
I disagree. I can argue that 121 flying is doing the same thing over and over again. Take-off, climb, cruise, auto pilot set, descent checklist, and land.We really do the same thing everyday.
There is a great deal of CRM in CFI'ing IMHO.
Your logic is undeniable..121 flying is indeed highly repetitive. However, my prior point stands and though it's true both are indeed repetitive, they are very different animals and require very different skill sets.
Please let me add this as well. I really think the CFI rating should be the elite rating. An ATP should be prerequisite. It's a tough gig, especially when you have an idiot with a big bank account in the left seat. However, I'll reiterate, 121 flying and CFI'ing are vastly different cockpit environments
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Sad isn't it?
I'm worried, even working for the "back door to ASA" company that these RJ courses will gradually become the norm.
Heaven forbid I try to explain this #### to my fellow CFI's/MEI's that work for the same company.
They just don't get how it is a negative impact on our profession.
Hell, a few weeks ago we had an "RJ" transition guy. He owned his own aircraft (SEL, tailwheel to be exact). This guy went out with one of our other MEIs, flies a couple approaches in the DA42 Twinstar (G1000 equiped [obviously]). Supposedly ASA has found that most people who wash out during sims lack an adequate glass cockpit scan technique, so they ship them off to go and get it - or they recommend it to those who lack a sufficient glass experience level before they come or even give an interview. Anyway - He brings it back into the pattern. . . flying the pattern, then right on short final. . .what does the joker say?
"Your controls. . .I don't want to land this thing."
anic:So, on short final, this guy hands the plane over to the MEI to land?
I'm sure you guys will see the same thing, but what exactly does this guy think he will be able to do flying an RJ at final approach speeds? "Here captain, I don't want to land this thing."
Get the hell out of my airplane, especially if it's a twin piston if you don't think you can land the damn thing. See ya. You want to go fly a JET but you can't deal with landing the easiest damn light twin-piston ever?
Where do these guys come from?
Zero1Niner
Well-Known Member
Great Post.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
You couldn't be further from the truth. CFI's were the easiest candidates to train in my experience for a number of reasons, but the guys that didn't have their instructor certificates did certainly get through in a number of situations, but for the most part the guys that really excelled were the instructors and that fact is pretty well known in training departments.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Mr Donut is a streamer. Right seat gurl I have no idea about, but I'm not impressed.
People, smoke is being blown up your buttocks....
The traditional way of building time, gaining experience, and paying your dues makes for a better jet F/O. That the bar for being an airline pilot has gone so low is a travesty. It's not good for the career nor is it good for the profession.
Diatribe about how to redefine PFJ, PFT, or CFI time is pointless. Don't be mislead.
The battle is being lost, from my perspective. ASA and AE are going to start paying for RJ courses for 190 hour pilots. Nothing I can do about that.
I pray for the future of the career.
People, smoke is being blown up your buttocks....
The traditional way of building time, gaining experience, and paying your dues makes for a better jet F/O. That the bar for being an airline pilot has gone so low is a travesty. It's not good for the career nor is it good for the profession.
Diatribe about how to redefine PFJ, PFT, or CFI time is pointless. Don't be mislead.
The battle is being lost, from my perspective. ASA and AE are going to start paying for RJ courses for 190 hour pilots. Nothing I can do about that.
I pray for the future of the career.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Don's right.
Check it out guys, we're not streamlining the system, we're subverting it. There is a traditional way of maturing pilots into effective crew members and it's flying out the window. It's my belief that safety is being reduced because of this. Some of you guys will argue with this, that's fine.
To be honest with you I think we're going to find out who was right when we have these 190 hour FO's upgrade to captain at 2,500 hours and have a 190 hour FO next to them. I can tell you that it can get kind of interesting up front when the folks in the right and left seat have less than 100 hours each in their respective seats. To be honest with you I don't know what I'd do in those situations without the background I've had already, which albeit is limited, but has provided me with some tools to effectively monitor the other pilot and make tactful recommendations when something is not going right and vise versa.
If you went from 190 hours and a wet commercial multi certificate to the right seat of an RJ you don't have those things to grab out of your bag of tricks. It's simply going to be a smaller bag, and you won't have as many answers when things start getting screwy. Like what are you going to do when ATC is telling you a number to write down, you have a pack tripping off line, the captain is trying to burn fuel with the gear and flaps out so you don't land overweight? Sure it's easy to say when you're on the ground, "Oh I'd do this and this and this, isn't it obvious?"
The fact is that it's a lot less obvious when the first time you see all this crap is when you have 230 hours and you just got off OE and haven't even imagined all this crap happening at once. I'm quite glad I saw students try to kill me, be in a situation where I had to monitor another pilot (instructing), saw electrical failures, possible in flight fires, deicing system failures, pressurization failures (three of those last four on one flight) and a bunch of other crap BEFORE I had 50 people in tow behind me. It's easy to say you'll just take care of yourself and everything will be cool, but I assure you guys that want the fast track that having those experiences is GOOD.
I understand wanting a seniority number, BELIEVE ME I DO. If I had been in class a week earlier or two weeks later I would be in LAX right now living large, but instead I'm sitting in Newark hoping to pick up a 4 hour two day that is uncommutable on the back end. Believe me, I understand your desire to move up but don't do it at the expense of your aviation education.
Check it out guys, we're not streamlining the system, we're subverting it. There is a traditional way of maturing pilots into effective crew members and it's flying out the window. It's my belief that safety is being reduced because of this. Some of you guys will argue with this, that's fine.
To be honest with you I think we're going to find out who was right when we have these 190 hour FO's upgrade to captain at 2,500 hours and have a 190 hour FO next to them. I can tell you that it can get kind of interesting up front when the folks in the right and left seat have less than 100 hours each in their respective seats. To be honest with you I don't know what I'd do in those situations without the background I've had already, which albeit is limited, but has provided me with some tools to effectively monitor the other pilot and make tactful recommendations when something is not going right and vise versa.
If you went from 190 hours and a wet commercial multi certificate to the right seat of an RJ you don't have those things to grab out of your bag of tricks. It's simply going to be a smaller bag, and you won't have as many answers when things start getting screwy. Like what are you going to do when ATC is telling you a number to write down, you have a pack tripping off line, the captain is trying to burn fuel with the gear and flaps out so you don't land overweight? Sure it's easy to say when you're on the ground, "Oh I'd do this and this and this, isn't it obvious?"
The fact is that it's a lot less obvious when the first time you see all this crap is when you have 230 hours and you just got off OE and haven't even imagined all this crap happening at once. I'm quite glad I saw students try to kill me, be in a situation where I had to monitor another pilot (instructing), saw electrical failures, possible in flight fires, deicing system failures, pressurization failures (three of those last four on one flight) and a bunch of other crap BEFORE I had 50 people in tow behind me. It's easy to say you'll just take care of yourself and everything will be cool, but I assure you guys that want the fast track that having those experiences is GOOD.
I understand wanting a seniority number, BELIEVE ME I DO. If I had been in class a week earlier or two weeks later I would be in LAX right now living large, but instead I'm sitting in Newark hoping to pick up a 4 hour two day that is uncommutable on the back end. Believe me, I understand your desire to move up but don't do it at the expense of your aviation education.
Bumblebee
Commodore
If I were not a CFI then I could not get a job as a CFI even if I had an additional 500 hours of real life experience or if I paid a company 6000 dollars for an extra week in a simulator.
In this case I could get the job if I had an additional 500 hours of real life experience, making actual decisions about safety of flight issues, but I can avoid all of that messy flying of airplanes and with 6,000 dollars get a job for 50 hours in a box. Not really the same argument.
Bigey
Well-Known Member
I see we will likely go round and round on this one. Look it is really simple. Experience matters. Anyone who tries to discount that fact is either...
a) trying to justify their position
b) seriously out of tune with the real world
c) all of the above
I sometimes dread starting a 4 day with a brand new FO here at my company...and we have high hiring minimums!! I couldn't imagine having some 300 hour FO next to me. As captain you have enough to put up with on a daily basis let alone teaching a new hire how to fly an airplane and learn the intricacies of the 121 world. Don't get me wrong, I try to be a good captain and impart solid knowledge on my FOs (have always been an educator) but I won't teach an FO things he/she should have picked up with years of experience already under the ol' belt.
It may ultimately be up to the FAA and airlines to set hiring minimums, however it is our job on the 'frontline' to keep them honest. Just like it is a citizens job to keep their government's practices honest.
Thank you Kelvin, well put
I appreciate your input always, it's really valuable, but i just dont agree on the "good captain" part.
I'm really sorry that you were ever a new F/O, and never needed help getting a hang of things. Hate to break it to you, but no one is going to be absolutely up to speed even with 5,000 hours if all that time has been in a single piston. You were a new FO too....dont forget that.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
No worries Bigey. I was wondering if that post of mine would come off sounding to hardcore. It is certainly not what I meant! None of us are perfect by any means, especially me
What I was trying to say was, I will take a former CFI, freight dawg, military guy, etc next to me any day than a 300 hour FO. Not to say I will treat the 300 hour guy like crap, but there is little doubt my own workload would be increased. Thus adding stress that I don't need.
Hope that clears it up
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
I think we're really to the point where we will be relying on the training departments at these regionals to maintain their standards of integrity and ultimately keep the flying public safe.
Look, just about every check airman I've talked to says they wouldn't sign a newhire off unless they felt comfortable putting their family in an airplane with that guy at the controls. Personally I've never flown with a guy who I didn't have confidence could get things on the ground safely if I had a massive heart attack and died at 37,000. I also haven't flown with anyone who I was afraid wouldn't speak up if I was about to kill us all and didn't realize it, and I've flown with some pretty low time guys ( < 600 hrs).
Hopefully the training departments are not going to be pressured to push through unsafe pilots. As long as that doesn't happen I think we'll be OK. I don't think I'd want to be a sim instructor or off-line check ariman at ASA, PDT, PSA, etc right now though....you'd really have to get up every morning and make sure you're not doing anyone any favors.
Look, just about every check airman I've talked to says they wouldn't sign a newhire off unless they felt comfortable putting their family in an airplane with that guy at the controls. Personally I've never flown with a guy who I didn't have confidence could get things on the ground safely if I had a massive heart attack and died at 37,000. I also haven't flown with anyone who I was afraid wouldn't speak up if I was about to kill us all and didn't realize it, and I've flown with some pretty low time guys ( < 600 hrs).
Hopefully the training departments are not going to be pressured to push through unsafe pilots. As long as that doesn't happen I think we'll be OK. I don't think I'd want to be a sim instructor or off-line check ariman at ASA, PDT, PSA, etc right now though....you'd really have to get up every morning and make sure you're not doing anyone any favors.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
And they wonder why they're having a hard time finding people to fly those airplanes?
Too much debt plus too little income tends to discourage people from entering the field.