Are these guys serious?

ctab5060X said:
For the sake of argument, what about this scenario:

Filed IFR flying in VMC on a hazy summer day into the setting sun...zero forward visibility, no discernible horizon except behind you, and the only way you can fly is by sole reference to instruments...can you log it as instrument time? Simulated or actual?
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Well, what's the definition of instrument flying? Flight solely by reference to instruments?

Sure sounds like this is the case. It may technically be VFR but if you can't keep the plane from turning into a lawn dart by looking out the window, it sure sounds like actual to me.
 
tonyw said:
Well, what's the definition of instrument flying? Flight solely by reference to instruments?

Sure sounds like this is the case. It may technically be VFR but if you can't keep the plane from turning into a lawn dart by looking out the window, it sure sounds like actual to me.
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Actually, IFR flying is flying in conditions less than VFR. Flight solely by reference to instruments has nothing to do with the definition of IFR.

I can be in VMC conditions....over the ocean at night...yet have to control the airplane solely by reference to instruments.

A couple of years ago there was a good thread about this in tech talk. I'm sure a search for it will be eye opening if you are unfamiliar with the thread.


Edit....TonyW...I think I misinterpreted your post....disregard....I see you were agreeing on the logging issue.
 
And I agree with you on logging instrument time as a non-instrument rated pilot. I think that's a bad idea. Sure, it is legal, but it shows a lack of judgment in my view.
 
I just can't understand why/how people can sleep at night after doing that. I know I sure would have a hard time. I can't honestly say I would recommend anyone doing this.
 
I asked a good friend of mine who is a DE about logging instrument time. His response was, be as accurate as you can, but make sure your instrument time is no more then 10% of your total time (at least as a CFI). So by logging Instrument time as accurate as I can, it actually comes to be about 10% of my TT anyway.

But fudging your logbook times, thats pretty dishonest as well as dangerous.
 
why even have a logbook if it's falsified???

I enjoy totaling up a new page and tracking my experience. It's a good feeling looking back on everything and seeing how far I've come. It's more then just a book I brought with me to an interview, that black books means a lot to me.
 
tonyw said:
Now, if we're talking about saying, well, it's 15 minutes so I'm going to log it as 0.3 hours instead of 0.2, that's one thing. But forging entries? That's just low.
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15 minutes is a .3 Tony. Good point however.

Time conversion chart:
58-02 = .0
03-08 = .1
09-14 = .2
15-20 = .3
21-26 = .4
27-33 = .5
34-39 = .6
40-45 = .7
46-51 = .8
52-57 = .9
 
JaceTheAce said:
All it takes is your logbook and another record not adding up and you're toast.
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I don't know if I'd go quite that far.

At my skydiving job all flight time is tracked in tach time, both for paying me and doing maintenance on the plane. The plane doesn't even have a hobbs meter.

At the end of every day I'll throw on an extra .1 in my logbook entry for every couple hours on the tach because I know I must have spent at least that much running at idle power.

If somebody called the dropzone and asked how much I had flown there, the DZ records would say xx.x hours. My logbook would read about 6% or 7% higher. Still totally legit.
 
casey said:
if you move the aircraft under its own power with the intent to fly, its loggable time. Even if all you do is return to parking because of mx, wx, or whatever.
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Uh, this is one of the most vague portions of the FARs. Flight time defined says that the flight MUST end with a landing. Please prove me wrong. Seriously. I have been trying to prove myself wrong for a long time... I just dont understand this portion of the FAR's.
 
juxtapilot said:
Uh, this is one of the most vague portions of the FARs. Flight time defined says that the flight MUST end with a landing. Please prove me wrong. Seriously. I have been trying to prove myself wrong for a long time... I just dont understand this portion of the FAR's.
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So if you crash (and survive), can you log it? :buck:
 
Our crew computers track gate returns and that goes toward our flight time limitations.

You moved the airplane with the full intention of flight and are paid flight pay for that.

All my gate returns are in my logbook and counted in my flight time- the interviewers and most others agreed with my technique.



Logging an instrument approach is a bit of a gray area as well- I personally log an instrument approach anytime I am cleared for one and complete the procedure without that being amended by approach control to a visual procedure. Some people only log them when they are in the clouds. I base my logging of them on the procedure and clearance.
 
Airdale said:
I asked a good friend of mine who is a DE about logging instrument time. His response was, be as accurate as you can, but make sure your instrument time is no more then 10% of your total time (at least as a CFI). So by logging Instrument time as accurate as I can, it actually comes to be about 10% of my TT anyway.
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All depends on the kind of flying you are doing...If you are a full time CFI, then 10% of your total time sounds like a good rule of thumb, but say, freight dawging is a different story. Just since I started flying freight, over 20% of my time is IFR (had several months that went completely clear). That being said, the past three nights...over 85% actual.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Logging an instrument approach is a bit of a gray area as well- I personally log an instrument approach anytime I am cleared for one and complete the procedure without that being amended by approach control to a visual procedure. Some people only log them when they are in the clouds. I base my logging of them on the procedure and clearance.
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Same here. You don't have to be in the clouds to be IFR.
 
Rocketman99 said:
15 minutes is a .3 Tony.
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Yeah, cause it's .25 so you round it to .3 anyway. Same for 45 minutes. You're looking at .75 there so round up to .8.

Or is it you round up for even and round down for odd? I don't remember, it's been a long time.:D
 
slpilot said:
It would be very easy to forge actual instrument times, whose going to know what kinda clouds you encountered. Its not right, but theres bad eggs in every occupation.
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I've always heard that if your Actual Instrument time is greater than 10% of your Total Time it may be questioned.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Our crew computers track gate returns and that goes toward our flight time limitations.

You moved the airplane with the full intention of flight and are paid flight pay for that.

All my gate returns are in my logbook and counted in my flight time- the interviewers and most others agreed with my technique.

Logging an instrument approach is a bit of a gray area as well- I personally log an instrument approach anytime I am cleared for one and complete the procedure without that being amended by approach control to a visual procedure. Some people only log them when they are in the clouds. I base my logging of them on the procedure and clearance.
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I log my flights exactly the same way an am under the same impression you are (the POI agree too). If you move a plane for the intention of flight then it is flight time.

REPOS are a bit of grey area. You have to taxi from overnight parking to the other side of the airport that take .4-.6. Do you log it? It went in the aircraft logbook.
 
14 CFR 1.1
Flight time means:
(1)Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.

To obey the letter of the law. You should not count the Hobbs meter until the aircraft moves under its own power. For all of us flight instructors that means that all of the times that we are teaching startup and engine procedures we shouldn't count. :banghead: I had a DE tell me to make sure that the wheels move a fraction of an inch upon startup so that you can count it.

So if there is a mx issue where you never get airborne - you should not count it.:mad:

FAR 1.1
IFR Conditions - means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.

91.155
...no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than tha prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace....

FAR 1.1
Flight Visibility - means the average forward horizontal distance, from the cockpit of an aircraft in flight, at which prominent unlighted objects may be seen and identified by day and prominent lighted objects may be seen and identified by night.

So if it is sun glare or a black hole you should be able to log it as instrument time.
 
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