Do FO's get to fly?

B767Driver, I understand your post a little better now after some more consideration. Has nothing to do with ego, just a bad experience with a captain recently who was too eager to assert "authority" even when he was flat out wrong. I spent the whole trip hearing about stories about how he asserted his authority on FOs to "put them in their place." As far as I'm concerned, I'm a required crew member. I come to do the job I'm paid for, and when I'm done, I go home.

I think if anything, I just disagreed with your choice of words. But I think we're on the same page otherwise.
 
P&H said:
B767Driver, I understand your post a little better now after some more consideration. Has nothing to do with ego, just a bad experience with a captain recently who was too eager to assert "authority" even when he was flat out wrong. I spent the whole trip hearing about stories about how he asserted his authority on FOs to "put them in their place." As far as I'm concerned, I'm a required crew member. I come to do the job I'm paid for, and when I'm done, I go home.

I think if anything, I just disagreed with your choice of words. But I think we're on the same page otherwise.
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If a captain has to remind an otherwise competent copilot who's in charge...he must have very little....hands and feet!
 
P&H said:
I flew with a captain authority once, as indicated above, and I had to literally pull teeth to get him to listen. There's a reason that all the open-time available trips are with him as Captain. No one likes to fly with these kinds of people.
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I've flown with "those guys" also..... one guy- while i was flying- would just look over to me and say..... "IM COLD". The first time this happened-i paused and thought-ok..... to which the captains next statement was " THAT MEANS TURN UP THE TEMPERATURE".
Its really not a long reach to the overhead panel to adjust the cockpit temp.....it was stupid things like this the whole day. (Thank god it was only a 1 day trip and i was on reserve). This same guy also preceded to tell me the reason that he doesnt use the flight director because "I (Captain) DONT NEED THE FLIGHT DIRECTOR TO SAVE MY LIFE- YOU (FO's) DO". That also proceded to "YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME BECAUSE YOUR ON PROBATION......(insert rant about something meaningless...blah blah blah)."
Just compeletly un-called for.


Yes i respect the captains position as PIC - but geesh people.....


As far as flying goes- when i started my IOE- i was flying the first leg....and it switched every other leg like we do normally on the line.

Back in the corporate days- it was just as someone posted- it depended on the PIC/Customer- and if the flight was an "empty" leg.
 
B767Driver said:
Okay, let me rephrase things a bit for you. The captain is the boss. The F/O is subordinate to the C. They are not equal positions of authority. Consistent with rules, safety and comfort...what the boss wants...he gets. This doesn't negate poor CRM. Most of the the C's I fly with display wonderful CRM skills.

Yet, as an F/O, I am under no false insinuations. It's not the F/O's airplane...there is no joint level of command. One person is "in command". Everyone else is subordinate. It's the F/Os job to make sure the captain looks good and completes the mission at hand.

If the C allows me to make some landings, that's great. If the C decides I should not make some landings, that's fine too. As I said, I serve at his/her pleasure...I still think that's an appropriate statement.

Everyone wants to erode the C's authority. We need to fight like heck to make sure that never happens.
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Amen.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Many times, the FO will only fly the empty legs. Quite stupid if you ask me, but that is the culture.
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Not exactly stupid, there is usually a little more involved than you expect. In some ways it is a better way to do it, but airlines don't have a choice since they don't have the luxury of empty legs. Only people with fragile egos have a problem flying empty legs. Believe it or not, the airplane flies exactly the same with or without people riding in the back. The other difference is that when corp SICs are flying the empty legs, they can do so from the left seat. When was the last time an airline FO flew a leg from the left seat?
Letting SICs fly empty legs for the first few (dozen) hours allows them to develop their skills in the plane and learn techniques without passengers having to "enjoy" their learning curve. It does not imply that the person has no skills or that they are not trusted. If that were the case they wouldn't have been hired in the first place.

At NetJets the SIC flies:
-Right seat empty legs for the first 50 hours.
-After 50 hours the FO may perform PF duties from the right seat with passengers and he/she can perform PF duties from the left seat on empty legs.
-If SIC has less than 100 hrs in type with NJA, the PIC must make all flights using DAAP provisions, Low RVR, or contaminated rwy. (FAR 135.385) http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/part135/jbadc049.pdf

If two PICs are paired, the senior pilot is PIC. We may swap every leg or we can swap days in the left seat. When I am flying as a junior PIC, I have no problem flying empty legs all week. I have even flown empty legs while my SIC flies the pax legs. Like I said, it flies the same either way. It shouldn't be a big deal.
 
meritflyer said:
I get to fly more than the Captains do. Most dont want to.
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You know that's right! At least half the time when I fly a 2-leg day trip, CA starts off with do you want to fly there, or fly back? What am I supposed to say "Oh, you don't feel like flying, huh?" :)
I always take the first leg when asked, I assume other FO's tell them they can't have the first leg.
Note to self: When I'm CA, fly the first leg.
 
I think you people have been watching too much West Wing. "I serve at the pleasure of the Captain" sounds like "I serve at the pleasure of the President."
 
mtsu_av8er said:
I fly at the pleasure of my captain . . .
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Am I the only one who's thought of pleasing the captain between legs?

Kidding kidding, I'm only kidding! Mods, I understand if you wanna delete this one. It just needed to be said for the sake of humor!

Seriously, I fly all the time, unless my captain happens to be a high mins person, then I fly NONE. Which is a bore, but then I get to be oh so cool on the radio - which is a blast.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
As has been previously stated, in the 121 world you typically alternate legs or do "twosies." (Twosies being one guy will start out and do ATL-MIA, then the other guy will do MIA-ATL-SAN, then SAN-ATL-LGA flown by the guy who started- that way you both get to land at outstations and you both get to land at the hub)


The FO gear puller thing is more prevelant in corporate operations. Many times, the FO will only fly the empty legs. Quite stupid if you ask me, but that is the culture.
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I'm a relatively new corporate first officer and this is my first jet job, but I haven't been relagated to just PNF duties. We generally trade legs (which includes landings) except in certain circumstances. For example when we fly to a new airport, the captain usually does the landing. Also, since we're based out of a fairly tricky airport (3500' x 50') until I have some more time and experience he's been reluctant to let me land there. For my first several landings and approaches he coached me through things, but now that I'm getting pretty comfortable in the plane he mostly sticks to our standard calls. So maybe I'm lucky or the exception, but I've been able to fly a lot.
 
Ralgha said:
An empty Brasilia is a whole different beast compared to a full Brasilia.
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True. But I doubt you're any less careful whether 3 or 30 people are on board. Sometimes our pax legs are :30 min and the ferry legs 5 hours.
 
Some airlines wouldnt type the FO if they werent going to be able to fly it. Kind of a waste of money
 
Most of the crews I've observed (thanks for the rides!) or been part of (thanks for watching my six!), George flies from about 500' to 500'. Sometimes the altitude varied, sometimes not.
 
bumblebee said:
Most of the time we split 2 at a time.

Often my captain will ask me if I have a preference. I always say, "Whatever makes you happy." My job is to make the captain happy (until it's time for me to not make the captain happy:D)I continue by saying, "I'll fly whichever legs you want, I'll fly all day, or I'll talk on the radios all day . . . I truly don't care as long as you're happy."

I will impose this philosophy on my FO's next year.
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I usually just tell 'em I get paid the same whether I fly the leg or not, so whatever floats their boat is fine by me.
 
P&H said:
So be it. I'm just going to have to disagree then. I don't serve at the captain's pleasure.
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Yes, I have read the entire thread...

P&H, I suggest you take a look in your Flight Operations Manual, I think you will find that your role in the cockpit is spelled out exactly...



From the FOM of a certain Southern airline (emphasis mine):


Responsibility and Authority

Captain
The Captain is designated as Aircraft Commander and has full responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft. He directs the activities of all crew members in a manner which promotes maximum safety, efficiency and operational effectiveness.

• The Captain is in complete command of the aircraft and has authority over all assigned crew members from the time they report for duty until termination of the flight. This includes transportation to and from the layover facility.

• The Captain’s orders will receive prompt compliance from all crew members.
– Differences from written procedures or other instructions should be brought to the Captain’s attention.
– If the order still stands, it is to be obeyed.

The Captain sets the example for all crew members with regard to proper conduct, appearance, alertness, discipline, adherence to operating procedures, and standards of proficiency.


First Officer

The First Officer’s primary responsibility is to assist the Captain in the safe and efficient operation of the aircraft while performing assigned duties.

The First Officer is also charged with the responsibility of immediately informing the Captain of unsafe conditions or improper handling which could place the aircraft in jeopardy.





Seems pretty black and white to me!



Kevin
 
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