ATC Starting Salary

[Vector4Food]

That sure beats my schedule of 6 on and 1 off...

Under the old pay rules if a new hire went to a level 12 they could expect to break 100K by their second year. Under the new pay rules my pay is capped... my base (and everyone pre IWR's) is above the new pay bands so any raise is computed as a lump sum. A locality pay rate increase is the only thing that ups my base at this point.

A lot of people are turning the job down, at least where I work. Not only have people turned it down but we have lost an unusually high amount of new hires to resignations.

Really can't say I blame them... well at some point they'll have to wake up and fix it, or there's going to be lot of airplanes sitting on the ground.

 

[TheGirlinPurple]

Off the street hires. . .ah great. . .that'll work. I am seriously concerned for the safety and quality of our NAS as we move into the next decade. It's going to be amazing. Reminds me of the McDonald's commercials where they showcased each person's current position "cashier, manager, cook" and then showed what they would be doing in the "future." The drive thru individual today is tomorrow's "Air Traffic Controller" because they once wore a headset and talked to people. . .so sad.

Just say no.

You do realize a good portion of the seasoned controllers came up through the OTS ranks right?

When I have visited facilities so far, The vast majority of controllers there were like: "Awesome, a guy getting the job the way we used to get jobs here. You do know that is how most of us got hired in the first place right?"

 

[Stinger]

I'm going the CTI school route and even though the pay has been cut down some, I'm still going to do ATC. I wasn't around when the controllers were getting above $100,000 so I wasn't bothered too much when pay was dropped. We'll see what happens though when I graduate college.

 

[surreal1221]

A lot of people are turning the job down, at least where I work. Not only have people turned it down but we have lost an unusually high amount of new hires to resignations.

Yup. . .was a pretty easy "Thanks, but no thanks." on my end.

You do realize a good portion of the seasoned controllers came up through the OTS ranks right?

When I have visited facilities so far, The vast majority of controllers there were like: "Awesome, a guy getting the job the way we used to get jobs here. You do know that is how most of us got hired in the first place right?"

And you do realize that the CTI program was not around immediately after the PATCO strike right?

When the FAA has pumped it's own budgetary funds into a program (CTI - College training initiative) to develop future Air Traffic Controllers, and tell these same future controllers that you'll be making >100K for over 30 years as a controller, THEN - imposes a contract onto the profession you (generic - FAA) should have no one to blame about not having enough staff but yourself (generic - FAA).

The FAA's problem was being a horrible negotiator. Off the street hires in this day in age is a different ball game then what it was post-PATCO strike. This is the Me-generation.

 

[PilotChip]

Doesn't really seem to be a problem. Although the only thing i do is give 'em a callsigne, route and altitude, open/close a flight plan or two.

They seem to be doing just fine for the amount of work I need them to do.

Thumbs up!

How do you guys (both ATC and Pilots) feel about FSS being run by MD? I kind of miss talking to controllers who were familiar with the area and actually knew about weather trends and specific to the area.

 

[TheGirlinPurple]

Anyone who went the CTI route and complains about pay/work rules has about as much respect from me as a person who PFTs for a pilot job and then complains about the same. You paid your money and now your upset your guaranteed job is no longer there or isn't what you expected. *Insert crying baby sound* Meanwhile, had you actually spoken with those in the industry, they would have filled you in on all the info you needed so you wouldn't make the mistake of the CTI route.

Active and retiring controllers (that I knew) knew from many years back that OTS would be back and be back soon. How you ask? They all were approaching retirement age. They knew CTI and VRA wouldn't be able to pump out that many controllers.

They also probably would have reminded you of the history of the profession: PATCO. If you think it is so bad now, go back in history to the end of the PATCO era. Enough said on this subject, PM me if you need a history lesson.

Granted the CTI program is an awesome way to go, it is not for sore losers and gamblers. Anyone who did it before last year knew the whole thing was a gamble from the start (if you had done your research). The only ones who were lied to by the FAA were the ones hired who were froze at their pay levels short of CPC. The rest were lied to by your schools, maybe next time you'll do research outside of school.

I personally shy'd away from it since:

A. My father was a controller during the PATCO days and set me straight on what could happen if you spend money to work only for the government. Plain and simple: Spend money on a career that has other options, not just one.

B. At the time your time limit was 2 years and your out. 1998-2004 had barely anyone getting hired. My ROTC Sargent in highscool had a daughter who was coming out of the military that couldn't get on with the FAA as a controller. Just because I paid the money I was going to get in?:rotfl:

The government won't raise pay just because they can't get enough people, they'll just lower the bar. If you really want a career you need to get in it and make changes, not stay away and be bitter.

As history repeats itself, things will get better. Just needs people with constructive ideas instead of bitter complainers.

One last thing before I get off my soap box here:

I do not mean to attack you Surreal, but I hope in 10,20, or 30 years from now you won't be in the same position as my father......regretting the mistake of giving up something he really enjoyed for the pettiness of politics.

 

[Fox Xray]

Polarbear... while I agree with some of your points it's hard to compare things now to years ago in ATC, while the politics of the job are the same much else has stayed the same.

While it is true that many of today's senior controllers were hired "off the street" they were the very few who made it to certification. Following the PATCO strike the FAA hired people like crazy. First was the screen in OKC where many failed. Those that passed were then sent on to some of the busiest facilities in the country where very few made it. Look at the traffic counts back in the 80's and early 90's compared to today... it's no comparison. The facility I presently work at averages 10,000 ops per day, the recent (last year or so) batch of new hires off the street are not doing well... they are failing out at an alarming rate. Getting hire off the street with no aviation knowledge and going straight to a FAA level 12 center or tracon is a recipe for failure... there is too much to learn and too little time given to learn it.

Even back when I trained things were different. As a trainee you received a lot of "unofficial" time learning the ropes. You sat and worked during slow times, worked the sectors all night on the mid shift before official training began. This gave you a good grip on the basics before training on the heavy traffic. That does not exist anymore, people come to the facility and are sent straight to the sim lab (pass/fail) for dysim training. If they pass they are sent to the floor for OJT where they have a set amount of hours that are tracked very closely.

This is the very reason the CTI program was formed. It was the opinion of the agency that if people entered into the job with a good base of knowledge about ATC then they would have a higher retention rate. I don't have any exact data but from what I have seen with my own eyes the CTI students for the most part were much better prepared. Unfortunately in our capitalistic society many of the CTI schools padded the CTI program with classes to extract the optimum amount of money from the student. The FAA only required two core ATC classes and one weather based class for CTI certification. All these fancy labs and stuff many CTI schools offer may be fun but they do not teach you how to work airplanes... only sitting and getting real OJTI will someone learn that.

I think many of the CTI students got the shaft from the FAA ... the very people that were involved with the present IWR's were the very same folks who went ot the CTI schools and waved these large pay scales in front of the students to sign them up.

 

[skydog]

Now is a hell of a time to ask. The time to ask these questions was before you enrolled or paid your tuition bill.

 

[surreal1221]

Now is a hell of a time to ask. The time to ask these questions was before you enrolled or paid your tuition bill.

And you think people didn't ask questions?

CTI students ask a hell of a lot of the FAA, and even asked a great deal from NATCA.

At my time as a CTI student NATCA and the FAA were negotiating, in a fair and equitable manner, for a new contract. NATCA fought long and hard to maintain the status quo for any future controllers. The FAA got tired of it, and just imposed their "non"-tract.

Perhaps now you'll realize that it doesn't matter who, or how many, or what the questions are, if you are lied to it doesn't matter what the answers are - much less what the questions were.

I applauded NATCA as a CTI student for their hard work. I will to this day remain an associate member of NATCA. Whether the latest group of OTS hires know it, but NATCA is fighting for you as well, say thanks every once in a while - and get on the right side of the team too.

 

[TheGirlinPurple]

At my time as a CTI student NATCA and the FAA were negotiating, in a fair and equitable manner, for a new contract. NATCA fought long and hard to maintain the status quo for any future controllers. The FAA got tired of it, and just imposed their "non"-tract.

And you don't think the government has done that before to it's controllers?

 

[Fox Xray]

Now is a hell of a time to ask. The time to ask these questions was before you enrolled or paid your tuition bill.

Don't forget that it's only the last 1-2 years that people have been hired into the FAA ATC off the street. Since the early to mid 90's the there was only three ways to get hired, ex military, the MARC school, and CTI.

I don't know a lot about CTI but I can tell you that much of the expense of the program is the fault of the schools offering it. They turned it into a cash cow and many recruiters at these schools made ridiculous promises.

A controller I worked with years ago wife was on the FAA CTI team, I remember that the intention of the program was to offer a few classes to students enrolled in the "professional pilot" programs offered by many aviation colleges to give them a shot at ATC. The intent of the agency was to recruit these students.

From where I sit, the inside looking out, many students were misled by the FAA.

 

[surreal1221]

And you don't think the government has done that before to it's controllers?

And you say that as if it that's an acceptable practice.

I on the other hand do not agree with such a statement. I'll stand up along side my fellow employee in any industry that has to work under an employer that thinks they can run right over us.

Please don't try to make an argument towards this being an acceptable practice.

 

[TheGirlinPurple]

And you say that as if it that's an acceptable practice.

I on the other hand do not agree with such a statement. I'll stand up along side my fellow employee in any industry that has to work under an employer that thinks they can run right over us.

Please don't try to make an argument towards this being an acceptable practice.

I am not saying it's acceptable. I'm pointing out that you in fact you did not do your research. History repeats itself. If someone or something breaks it's word, They (it) will do it again.

Now, with that said, working for a government agency is working for an employer who will always go back on their word. Not because they are liars, but because our government is a republic. Our leaders change and change often. With that, the rules change and change often. What one administration does another can take back. Sometimes its for the good, sometimes its for the bad.

You know what? I like it that way. When something bad gets put in place, it can get changed. Unfortunately the good can be taken away too.No one and nothing is perfect, but I would love for you to point out a government better than the US Government.

 

[surreal1221]

Look man.

You can keep being a dick and telling me that I didn't do my research, or you can back off a little bit.

Up to you.

I did my research, you don't know me and you've never stepped a foot in my life. So just keep your assumptions about my "research or lack thereof" in your little bag of tricks.

It doesn't work. More over, you're telling me things about working for a government agency that I already know about. But, you wouldn't know this because you don't know me from Adam.

If you'd like to have a civilized conversation and discussion I'm game. But don't you think for a second that I'll allow anyone to tell me that I didn't do research on a profession that I had my eyes set on since I was 12. What I may not have done was do the research as you would have liked, perhaps you should write a book about it and have it published so people can do exactly as you did and live such a great life.

 

[clestudentpilot]

I am not saying it's acceptable. I'm pointing out that you in fact you did not do your research. History repeats itself. If someone or something breaks it's word, They (it) will do it again.

Now, with that said, working for a government agency is working for an employer who will always go back on their word. Not because they are liars, but because our government is a republic. Our leaders change and change often. With that, the rules change and change often. What one administration does another can take back. Sometimes its for the good, sometimes its for the bad.

You know what? I like it that way. When something bad gets put in place, it can get changed. Unfortunately the good can be taken away too.No one and nothing is perfect, but I would love for you to point out a government better than the US Government.

:yeahthat: This is such a great country we live in, and it is great these discussions can occur, in 95% of the world this discussion wouldn't take place unless the government controlled it. Every profession goes through its ups and downs. I know many in here place every bit of blame on George Bush since after all he is the most evil person in the world (those same people also think a government conspiracy caused September 11th, not bin laden), but the bottom line is that people in some professions, mostly those with a union, hate republicans, and poeple in other professions (mostly those without a union) hate democrats. It is very obvious that this is 100% a political thread, and I'm not going to debate which party is better or worse. The reason for this is that in this day and age there is not one politician that is worth a damn. ALL politicians are corrupt bastards. When you vote on election day, you vote for the better of two evils, not for someone who can turn things around, because that will never happen. Anyone who belives a word of what these politicians say when they're running is a fool, because history tells you that they say what needs to be said to keep their supporters, and win a few along the way. I've said what I felt needed to be said about this thread. Polarbear, I agree with most of what you've said, but back off a little on surreal. I'm sure he did some research on the profession ahead of time, maybe he didn't plan on the route things would take, but is obviously passionate about ATC. Surreal, just try to read what polarbear has said, other than any shots taken on you. He brings up valid points. The bottom line is that no one can count on the government living up to everything we think it should, because history shows that the givernment has let us down before, and it will let us down again. I'm going to leave in saying this, people need to stop being concerned with money. Money doesn't buy happiness. Everyone should choose a career field they are happy in, and as long as you can make ends meet do it. Anyone who chooses a job, and their decission is in any way based on money is a fool and isn't concerned with happiness. I've learned this the hard way. I'm in the process of changing career fields all because I was concerned with the money I made, not my happiness, I now realize my priorities were completely backwards.

Sorry about my run-on paragraph:banghead:

 

[Vector4Food]

Money doesn't buy happiness, I agree, but it sure as hell helps. coming from someone who spent 8 years a rampie, then student pilot turned ATC.

I'm a helluva lot happier since I don't worry about bills, creditors and all that crap anymore.

I can also tell you, that for 40K per year I wouldn't have applied to ATC, I would have kept slugging with the flying bit.

 

[TheGirlinPurple]

Look man.

You can keep being a dick and telling me that I didn't do my research, or you can back off a little bit.

Up to you.

I did my research, you don't know me and you've never stepped a foot in my life. So just keep your assumptions about my "research or lack thereof" in your little bag of tricks.

It doesn't work. More over, you're telling me things about working for a government agency that I already know about. But, you wouldn't know this because you don't know me from Adam.

If you'd like to have a civilized conversation and discussion I'm game. But don't you think for a second that I'll allow anyone to tell me that I didn't do research on a profession that I had my eyes set on since I was 12. What I may not have done was do the research as you would have liked, perhaps you should write a book about it and have it published so people can do exactly as you did and live such a great life.

Well I am sorry if you feel I am being a "dick" towards you.

Your comments have not been offensive and have been completely civil toward me

You started it in this thread with your comments on OTS applicants. I countered.

You are right, I do not know you personally, though I have been an active member on here for several years. I may not post thousands of messages, but I do read most threads in the forums that interest me. Therefore I have read much of what you have written on here. I base my comments on that. When you make possibly offensive comments you make a large target for yourself.

I have held back in other threads, but your comments on OTS brought me to comment. You responded, I responded. Don't try to play victim. We are both to blame for the flames in this thread.

I also decided to officially put out my stance on CTI. I am sorry if you are offended, but that is my opinion. CTI=PFT/PFJ. I have no problem with it, but when you consistently whine and say: "Poor me, I didn't get what I expected", I am going to call you out for lack of research. You get zero sympathy from me, sorry if that offends you. I could say worse things, but believe it or not, I am a pretty nice guy so I won't.

Now, I am done flaming you in this thread. As long as you mind your comments on other threads I will mind mine.

Feel free to PM me if you need to resolve this further.

 

[surreal1221]

CTI = PFJ/PFT?

Well, when some guys have graduated from CTI programs back in 01-02 and had to go through hoops to get their names put back on the list to be called after their names were removed following the two year grace period I can't quite agree with your opinion that these guys are paying for a job or paying for training. They still have to go through OKC, and . . .they have some sort of degree in the field. While it's a joke degree, I'll agree with you on that, it is higher learning.

So English teachers PFJ/PFT when they major in English at a liberal arts school? Do financial analysts PFJ/PFT when they major in economics at an Ivy league school? So what I'm saying is real simple.

Every industry has some equivalent area of study at a college or university. Trouble with ATC is that there is only one employer that will likely hire individuals with no prior ATC work experience (contract ATC aside is what I'm saying). So, when these individuals graduate with a degree in whatever with a CTI recommendation (remember, these people can major in Economics and do the minimal required course work for a CTI recommendation) they are simply offering themselves to the one employer in this country that provides Air Traffic services - The FAA.

Now, if your beef is with the fact that for the previous 20 years, past three years excluded, that the FAA wasn't hiring anyone unless they went through the MARC school (is that PFJ/PFT too?), Military (is that PFJ/PFT cause we pay for it with our time and QOL), or CTI (which you obviously feel is PFJ/PFT and no amount of rational discussion will steer your clear of such a rash statement), then I can partially feel your pain. For whatever reason, you think that off the street hires got the shaft for the 90's and early part of 2000's. Fine, tough titties. Move on. I have.

Just saying . . . horrible attempt at an analogy.

Furthermore, CTI students and graduates are not told it's a guaranteed job. Maybe that's where you are mistaken. Remove that thought process and maybe you'll be able to see the light. They graduate, their name is put on a list, they take the AT-SAT, and are selected. Some are never selected and are forced to seek employment elsewhere. So, it's not a guaranteed job. But think what you wish.

Well, hope your career takes you far.

Also - at least you openly state you're flaming me in a thread. Glad to see cooler heads prevailed. . . Go have a beer. Go ahead and tell me though which comments in this thread sent you over the top? Did I call you out as an Off the Street Hire? Or are you outing yourself? That's something to be proud of.

 

[Fox Xray]

I also decided to officially put out my stance on CTI. I am sorry if you are offended, but that is my opinion. CTI=PFT/PFJ.

I have to chime in and take exception with this statement... you're comparing apples and oranges.

As I stated in an earlier post I was privy to early CTI information due to my involvement with NATCA and one of my coworkers spouse was a manager on the FAA CTI team. During the 90's thru about 02' the only way for a civilian to be hired into the FAA as an ATCS was via CTI or MARC (MARC could be argued as PFT but that's for another time).

During the 90's enrollment at aviation colleges was increasing. The FAA was looking for a way to recruit the college aviation student into the FAA. Hence the CTI program was created. They never promised anyone a job... the intention of the program was to offer a few basic "elective" courses in ATC. Upon passing those courses AND a recommendation by the teacher the student was then able to take the written exam for ATC. This was the ONLY way a civilian could take the exam... there was no other way.

The program took a little while to catch on but it did become popular and the stats I saw quite a few years ago indicated the students did well at OKC and in the field. In the early 2000's (prior to the IWR's) the FAA was still having trouble filling slots in hard to staff facilities, particularly in some large cities such as NY, Chicago, ATL, Oakland, etc. In these areas they offered the ATSAT test to "off the street people". These tests only qualified these candidates to work in the geographic area the test was offered in. So ... if you took the test in Oakland you could not get hired anywhere else in the nation. Following the IWR's many CTI students turned the job down, the FAA scrambled to fill these slots and began offering them to OTS people and began offering the test all over the country.

I don't blame the students for being mad... the FAA wanted college educated people to fill the slots as ATCS but then turned around and offered them minimum wage.

 

[TheGirlinPurple]

So English teachers PFJ/PFT when they major in English at a liberal arts school? Do financial analysts PFJ/PFT when they major in economics at an Ivy league school? So what I'm saying is real simple.

No, those have always required degrees.

Now being PFJ/PFT is not bad in my book. Every human being takes the advantages they can get to get a job, that is a free society for you. However, those that go this route do tend to look at $$$ signs more than listen to guys that would have told them not to count on the money given.

What I have a problem with is when you whine and complain when you didn't get what you want. Furthermore you constantly berate those that want to get in the field. I have stated this several times, need me to quote myself to show you this?

Every industry has some equivalent area of study at a college or university. Trouble with ATC is that there is only one employer that will likely hire individuals with no prior ATC work experience (contract ATC aside is what I'm saying). So, when these individuals graduate with a degree in whatever with a CTI recommendation (remember, these people can major in Economics and do the minimal required course work for a CTI recommendation) they are simply offering themselves to the one employer in this country that provides Air Traffic services - The FAA.

True, I PFT'd by going to A&P school. I could have gone through the military(which never is PFT/PFJ BTW) or worked my way slaving in a shop for 3 years. I chose the quick route.

When a new mechanic comes straight out of A&P school and starts whining about how bad the industry is, I tell the same thing: Quit whining, you should have done your research better.

My problem is not that you PFT'd it is that you PFT'd and then complain about it. Worse you berate and belittle those that wish to go where you chose not to. I would have never said anything had you been constructive in your criticism

Now, if your beef is with the fact that for the previous 20 years, past three years excluded, that the FAA wasn't hiring anyone unless they went through the MARC school (is that PFJ/PFT too?), Military (is that PFJ/PFT cause we pay for it with our time and QOL), or CTI (which you obviously feel is PFJ/PFT and no amount of rational discussion will steer your clear of such a rash statement), then I can partially feel your pain. For whatever reason, you think that off the street hires got the shaft for the 90's and early part of 2000's. Fine, tough titties. Move on. I have.

Putting words in my mouth again. When did I say VRA was PFT?

Since you brought up VRAs, how many turn down the offer and complain like you do?

Well, hope your career takes you far.

Go ahead and tell me though which comments in this thread sent you over the top? Did I call you out as an Off the Street Hire? Or are you outing yourself? That's something to be proud of.

I have not been set off. You have not upset me at any point. The original comments I quoted on my last post (plus comments from other threads) led me to respond.

If you called me out as an OTS hire, thats news to me.

For the record, yes, I am an OTS applicant. Yes I have received a tentative offer. Yes, I have accepted it and am waiting for my paperwork to clear.

I have not announced it because it is not a final offer yet.
I didn't announce my airline jobs until I had a final offers too. Your point?