Do FO's get to fly?

LoadMasterC141

LoadMasterC141

Well-Known Member
So I had a different instructor to get some actual this Saturday. We were on the way back from a quick lunch at Meacham, when we started discussing FO low times in the airlines. He is the chief pilot for a Corp Jet outfit on our field and I was surprised to see him actually take the stance that low time FO’s were not really a big deal. He said the airlines were much safer than other sectors of aviation because they have things like canned Flight Plans and a large support network. I said that there is still a low time guy in the right seat flying the plane. He looked at me sideways and said there is no way an FO gets to fly the plane until he has hundreds, if not thousands, of hours under his/her belt in TYPE. That is what the Captain does. The FO just turns the knobs the Captain asks for and answers the radio.

I have heard some stories about airlines like Mesa having FO’s that scared the Captain too much to be able to fly, but is this true everywhere?
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
He looked at me sideways and said there is no way an FO gets to fly the plane until he has hundreds, if not thousands of hours, under his/her belt in TYPE. That is what the Captain does. The FO just turns the knobs the Captain asks for and answers the radio.
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I don't believe this is completely, 100% true.

Remember when we were on the ATP forums and Bob was telling us that legs were alternated between CA and FO? I also specifically remember him saying that you were allowed to hand-fly as much as you wanted at XJT.
 
I don't think it is true at all as I do remember Bobs' forum and other threads here. Just wondering what people would have to say about this.

The instructor was so adamant he was right that it almost became an argument. He continued with reasoning like "you really think you will get to fly a 70 million(I think a bit high here) dollar plane full of passengers with just 5 or 600 hours?"
 
Yes, you do get to fly the plane. You are not going to learn how to fly by sitting there.

Well, One saying from one of CA I have flown with - CA's autopilot never failed, :p. It usually alternate CA and FO with different leg.

However, in my case, CA usually let me fly the "Fun" leg. For example, full ILS approach into BTV or AVL, in IMC. Express Visual 31 into LGA, Visual approach RWY 22 into DCA (I know it is not charted), 30 kts cross wind...etc. I have learned a lot from those captains' "coaching." But that is just the place I work. Don't anybody else.:D
 
Your instructor is very misinformed. And I'm surprised considering his position.

The general day to day duties of a first officer are the same as the captain. Captain will fly one leg, FO will act as non flying pilot, and then typically, the next leg they alternate, and the FO will fly, and the Captain will act as non flying pilot.

This is what we do and this is how it works. So yes, 300 hour pilots are flying and landing airliners. It's not that hard. Your instructor doesn't know what he's talking about, thousands of hours in type? We're not flying the SR-71. The primary difference is that the captain is the final authority on the aircraft. Something which rarely needs to be utilized anyways. So the flying is pretty much equal between CA and FO. Make sure you tell your CFI this so he doesn't sound like a moron again when he tells this to someone else.
 
P&H said:
Your instructor is very misinformed. And I'm surprised considering his position.

The general day to day duties of a first officer are the same as the captain. Captain will fly one leg, FO will act as non flying pilot, and then typically, the next leg they alternate, and the FO will fly, and the Captain will act as non flying pilot.
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:yeahthat:

FO makes all flight/enroute decisions on his/her leg as well... the only difference is that the captain can overturn a decision based on safety or concern. But other than that... the FO job is basically the same CA's... but the CA is the 100% responsible for the safety/security of the aircraft & customers.

Bob

LoadMasterC141 said:
Location: Temple, TX but from Ithaca, NY wishing I was on an island in Fiji
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Your location format looks vaguely familiar... ;)
Captain_Bob said:
Location: DFW, based in ONT, wishing I was in Maine
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I had a passenger come up to me at the end of the flight and say , ''wow, he let you land it huh?''

Keep in mind:
I fly a 1900
Our cockpit door is open throughout the entire flight
It was my leg and we don't have an autopilot
He was sitting in seat 1A which means he could see me and my hands the entire flight.

Comments like that from someone who knows nothing about flying is expected, but not from a CFI.
 
The F/O serves at the pleasure of the captain. The captain essentially makes the decision who will fly what legs. Regulatory-wise, there are some situations where the F/O is not allowed to fly...CAT2/3 landings, takeoff vis below 1/4 mile, and some other specific circumstances for low time F/Os.

The captain should evaluate the F/Os overall experience level...and should the situation dictate...not allow the F/O to fly the leg if the captain deems the F/Os experience level does not meet that required of the situation. I would imagine in the current environment, with low experience levels, this happens occasionally.

Typically, though, the C and F/O split legs. I cannot recall a situation that I've been in where I have refused an F/O a leg...or been denied one by a C.
 
You're the Captain...you meet your FO. He says "Hi I am FO Earwet! This is my first flight since IOE and I can't wait to fly!"

FO Earwet gets to fly? That is what my CFI is saying; that brand new FO's, even after IOE, are not allowed to fly the actual plane for a LONG time.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Your the Captain...you meet your FO. He says "Hi I am FO Earwet! This is my first flight since IOE and I can't wait to fly!"

FO Earwet gets to fly? That is what my CFI is saying; that brand new FO's, even after IOE, are not allowed to fly the actual plane for a LONG time.
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In a normal course of business, yes, they fly every other leg.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
That is what my CFI is saying; that brand new FO's, even after IOE, are not allowed to fly the actual plane for a LONG time.
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Yes they do get to fly right after IOE. I don't know where your CFI heard otherwise but he is wrong. Depending on the company they may have some limitations. For example a wet runway or strong crosswind then the FO may not be allowed to land (again, this depends on the company procedures). Generally those limitations don't last long, usually around 100 hours or so in seat and there are no more limitations.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
You're the Captain...you meet your FO. He says "Hi I am FO Earwet! This is my first flight since IOE and I can't wait to fly!"

FO Earwet gets to fly? That is what my CFI is saying; that brand new FO's, even after IOE, are not allowed to fly the actual plane for a LONG time.
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Your CFI is wrong and knows not of what he speaks. :)
In fact, as an FO you fly even sooner than your example. On IOE, the check airman will typically fly the first two legs, and then it's your airplane. The brand new FO flies the entire leg. The check airman will not step in unless there is a safety of flight issue.
During IOE, the FO usually is the flying pilot on all/most of the legs. Once on the line, starting with IOE + 1 day, CA and FO alternate legs.
 
If FOs didnt fly how else would they maintain their 3 landings in 90 day currency, etc? That CFI has no idea what he is saying
 
It's my leg.. I'm flying.. :)

Most Captains I fly with pretty much let you run the show when it's your leg...
 
Completing IOE means someone in the training department signs you off as competent and qualified to fly the line, so yep you are good to go.

I never made a night landing in the actual aircraft until flying on the line, mostly due to the sun not giong down till after 9 pm in Atlanta. I told the first captain I flew with that first time that it was my first leg of flying since completing training and my first night landing in the aircraft, period. His response was something to the effect of "So? You are on the payroll now right? You are gonna have to do it sometime." Granted, I had a bit more that 250 hours, but there is no substitute for experience.
 
Sometimes we don't switch each leg. If we keep going between one base and another city then we will switch off every 2 legs, just so one person doest do all the landings at one airport
 
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