Observations from an outsider

Wait until you actually get up front and you'll know what he's talking about, Paul. 3,500 hours ain't that much when it comes down to it.

JH slow the roll man... you yourself are a low timer when hired and did fine in the cheif and now the ERJ..... To said what is going on with a guy having low times is unsafe show me evidence..... Where did a plane go down and or something happen.... Define what you mean by low hours.... you simply state 3500 is a LOW Time and feel unsafe yet you and I both know guys who are the best damn pilots out there at those times..... To generalize it is wrong and if he wants to put it out there support your claim..... I have no problem with saying 400,500,600 guys are low b/c they are.... Yet we all know YOUR company loves the 600 hour guys... Hell your HR lady even said so herself at the ERAU job fair........
 
Like many of us here, I've dreamt and thought of a career in aviation. More specifically, flying. I've had my PPL for a few years now and I may or may not proceed further. One of the things that gives me pause is what seems to be the state of the profession.

I own a business, and until 2 1/2 years ago I flew commercially as a passenger 6-8 times per month. Unlike a lot of business travelers, I actually enjoyed flying. Whenever I would schedule a flight, I would always choose a window seat. I had to sit by the window so I could stare out and take in all the wonder that flying would bring. Childishly, I'm still bothered to this day when people close the blind on their window. My family and I still travel commercially about a half dozen times a year, but for business travel(I typically travel a four state area) I fly a DA40. There's a couple of reasons for this. First, DUH...why wouldn't I fly myself. Secondly, and more important, I'm nervous about the low times many of these PICs and SICs have. Some of them don't even look like they're old enought to have a driver's license!! It's really not about their age. It's mostly about their inexperience and the route many of them took to become a pilot.

Many of these F/O have less than a thousand hours total time. Of those, many have 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 hundred hours. Alot of office personnel that I hire can't even be taught to be proficient at cash application or AR/AP in 4 or 5 hundred hours! How can one reasonably expect to be competent and proficient at flying a sophisticated jet in that amount of time? They can't. Not to what I would deem competent and proficient. In today's society, so many people have the "I WANT IT NOW" mentality. I won't get into where that comes from here. That would take too long. Here's where all of this is heading. We've all heard or overheard people saying "There are no shortcuts in life." That is simply not true. There are shortcuts available to us all. And every single one of them comes at a price. For many beginning pilots these days, a shortcut is available. It's called an overpriced flight school. Who will pay the price? Maybe just the pilot. Maybe the pilot's mommy and daddy. Maybe the pilot's spouse and children. Or the worst case scenario. Maybe the pilot, his flight crew, and 50 or 70 or 90 passengers on his flight. There is no doubt in my mind that the day(s) for the last scenario is/are coming. That's why I fly myself as much as possible these days. When my family and I fly commercially, we fly on a major. Not a regional. I want to know that the people in the cockpit are competent and professional and experienced.

In the end, what's my advice to anyone looking to become a professional pilot? EARN IT. Treat your profession professionally. Just finishing college? Get a decent job and gain experience and time flying at your local FBO from trained PROFESSIONALS. Career changer? Don't quit your day job until you've earned an appropriate amount of experience and time flying at your local FBO. Spoiled brat whose mommy and daddy will pay for anything you want???? That's a topic for a different forum on another day. In the end I just want people to think about the price they, and potentially, many others will pay for their shortcuts. It's not worth it. Aviation is a profession. Treat it accordingly, and the carriers will have no choice but to improve the pay and quality of life for their PROFESSIONALS.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions. These are not statements of fact. And if you disagree with anything I've said, well, you're wrong...:)

Rather interesting 2nd post...
 
"With fewer and fewer people having the resouces to get the licenses"

Resources? They'll pay 40 or 50 or 60K to go to a ridiculously overpriced school with inferior instructors but they won't pay 1/3 to 1/2 of that at their local FBO. Oh, and by the way, receive better instruction. It's the "I want it now" syndrome at work here. Improving your profession is not an overnight proposition. It's a battle for hearts and minds that will take years. Just trying to point out some of the flaws.

Inferior instruction? How do you figure.... Again an assumption and horrible one if that.... To say places such as an academy have inferior instruction blows my mind. The guy at the FBO who is a new instructor is a new instructor. Instructors are only as good as their experience and willingess to learn and do a good job by putting in hard work..... Just b/c a CFI is instructing at a DCA or a RIddle or a ATP FALCON Skymates Ariben doesnt make them any less of an instructor......
 
The 1900 is a much simpler aircraft than the jets we fly, but they're flying down in the crap, with no moving map, no GPS and no autopilot. It takes a much better pilot to fly the 1900 than it does to fly a jet.

Then why haven't there been more (when was the last one) crashes at Great Lakes? Air Midwest (caused by pilot error...)? Big Sky?

All those places have/had quick upgrades at low (1500 hrs) times.

Ya'll are full of it.
 
Yes, but prior to 9/11 you had to have about 1500 hours of instructing experience just to get hired at a regional. I'm not a big proponent of the idea that instructing is such great experience, but it's better than nothing and teaches at least a little bit of decisions making and judgment. Guys can get hired now at 500 hours total time, build a 1000 hours in just over a year at their regional, and then upgrade into the left seat of a high-performance airplane. It's just plain scary.

High performance airplane? Hmm look up that definition if your FAR and let me know what it says..... However not MANY are really upgrading at 1500TT. There are few and far between that you will find actually upgrading at 1500. Perhaps it happens at Greatlakes and some of the prop carriers but you will rarely see it.... Does it happen i'm sure... But the FAA is the one who made it 1500TT for a person to HOLD an ATP......
 
Then why haven't there been more (when was the last one) crashes at Great Lakes? Air Midwest (caused by pilot error...)? Big Sky?

All those places have/had quick upgrades at low (1500 hrs) times.

Ya'll are full of it.

I would NOT go as far as saying full of it. However many of those who are commenting are lower guys themselves who were a Cessna pilot all of 1-2 years ago and have little time.... But this is the norm isnt it? A lot of assumptions with little proof to back things up? Rather we just go out and make assumptions and rant and rave about things......

Fact of the matter is the last crash I remember was the comair one... If i remember right the FO was a damn near 6 year FO? Hmm wonder how many hours he had let alone the CA..... Things happen and its horrible but things are going to happen with a low time pilot or experience flight crew such as the comair crash.... Horrible regardless.

"The crew consisted of Captain Jeffrey Clay, 35, who was hired by Comair in November 1999, First Officer James M. Polehinke, 44, who was hired in March 2002, and flight attendant Kelly Heyer, 27, hired in July 2004. Comair president Don Bornhorst stated in a press conference that Clay was very familiar with the aircraft.[3"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comair_Flight_5191
 
JH slow the roll man... you yourself are a low timer when hired and did fine in the cheif and now the ERJ..... To said what is going on with a guy having low times is unsafe show me evidence..... Where did a plane go down and or something happen.... Define what you mean by low hours.... you simply state 3500 is a LOW Time and feel unsafe yet you and I both know guys who are the best damn pilots out there at those times..... To generalize it is wrong and if he wants to put it out there support your claim..... I have no problem with saying 400,500,600 guys are low b/c they are.... Yet we all know YOUR company loves the 600 hour guys... Hell your HR lady even said so herself at the ERAU job fair........

Righto, but I was also WELL aware that 3,500 hours didn't make you Jesus in the cockpit.

I'm ultra low time, and I conduct my legs as such. I'm ultra conservative in how I'm flying my airplane right now, and that'll continue for a while.

Just because I'm a low timer myself does not mean that I can't say that we're lowering safety because of the lack of experience in the cockpit. I very much believe that we are.
 
Then why haven't there been more (when was the last one) crashes at Great Lakes? Air Midwest (caused by pilot error...)? Big Sky?

All those places have/had quick upgrades at low (1500 hrs) times.

Ya'll are full of it.

You're right! We're as safe as we've ever been! The only metric for safety is crashes!
 
Righto, but I was also WELL aware that 3,500 hours didn't make you Jesus in the cockpit.

I'm ultra low time, and I conduct my legs as such. I'm ultra conservative in how I'm flying my airplane right now, and that'll continue for a while.

Just because I'm a low timer myself does not mean that I can't say that we're lowering safety because of the lack of experience in the cockpit. I very much believe that we are.

No arguement there....
 
Like many of us here, I've dreamt and thought of a career in aviation. More specifically, flying. I've had my PPL for a few years now and I may or may not proceed further. One of the things that gives me pause is what seems to be the state of the profession.

I own a business, and until 2 1/2 years ago I flew commercially as a passenger 6-8 times per month. Unlike a lot of business travelers, I actually enjoyed flying. Whenever I would schedule a flight, I would always choose a window seat. I had to sit by the window so I could stare out and take in all the wonder that flying would bring. Childishly, I'm still bothered to this day when people close the blind on their window. My family and I still travel commercially about a half dozen times a year, but for business travel(I typically travel a four state area) I fly a DA40. There's a couple of reasons for this. First, DUH...why wouldn't I fly myself. Secondly, and more important, I'm nervous about the low times many of these PICs and SICs have. Some of them don't even look like they're old enought to have a driver's license!! It's really not about their age. It's mostly about their inexperience and the route many of them took to become a pilot.

Many of these F/O have less than a thousand hours total time. Of those, many have 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 hundred hours. Alot of office personnel that I hire can't even be taught to be proficient at cash application or AR/AP in 4 or 5 hundred hours! How can one reasonably expect to be competent and proficient at flying a sophisticated jet in that amount of time? They can't. Not to what I would deem competent and proficient. In today's society, so many people have the "I WANT IT NOW" mentality. I won't get into where that comes from here. That would take too long. Here's where all of this is heading. We've all heard or overheard people saying "There are no shortcuts in life." That is simply not true. There are shortcuts available to us all. And every single one of them comes at a price. For many beginning pilots these days, a shortcut is available. It's called an overpriced flight school. Who will pay the price? Maybe just the pilot. Maybe the pilot's mommy and daddy. Maybe the pilot's spouse and children. Or the worst case scenario. Maybe the pilot, his flight crew, and 50 or 70 or 90 passengers on his flight. There is no doubt in my mind that the day(s) for the last scenario is/are coming. That's why I fly myself as much as possible these days. When my family and I fly commercially, we fly on a major. Not a regional. I want to know that the people in the cockpit are competent and professional and experienced.

In the end, what's my advice to anyone looking to become a professional pilot? EARN IT. Treat your profession professionally. Just finishing college? Get a decent job and gain experience and time flying at your local FBO from trained PROFESSIONALS. Career changer? Don't quit your day job until you've earned an appropriate amount of experience and time flying at your local FBO. Spoiled brat whose mommy and daddy will pay for anything you want???? That's a topic for a different forum on another day. In the end I just want people to think about the price they, and potentially, many others will pay for their shortcuts. It's not worth it. Aviation is a profession. Treat it accordingly, and the carriers will have no choice but to improve the pay and quality of life for their PROFESSIONALS.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions. These are not statements of fact. And if you disagree with anything I've said, well, you're wrong...:)


It is too bad you don't fly commercial anymore with your hundreds of hours in small single engine aircraft it would be great if you were available on the flight when the captain has to send the incompetent first officer (who has passed all FAA tests, all airline training) on a time out.

When I get on a regional flight now I always make sure I go up to the captain and let him know if anything happens with his first officer I can step in because of my extensive ms flight simulator time.

Really who do these first officers think they are, they need to earn it. These guys come along and immediately all the pay increases that the pilots received in the last few years stopped.

And all these guys are going to expensive schools and having their parents pay, I wonder why Sallie Mae even continue to advertise in these schools because everybody knows none of these guys are actually paying for it themself.
 
You're right! We're as safe as we've ever been! The only metric for safety is crashes!

How would you measure safety then?

As you like to point out, it takes a sharp pilot to fly a 1900 in the mountains. I'd agree. But there aren't any statistics that back up your statement that having a 1500 hour CA is unsafe in that situation. One could say it is an "accident waiting to happen", but then they'd be waiting for decades.
 
And all these guys are going to expensive schools and having their parents pay, I wonder why Sallie Mae even continue to advertise in these schools because everybody knows none of these guys are actually paying for it themself.

Rather interesting..... I'll let ya dig that hole for yourself with this comment....

I'll just say i know only ONE guy who had mommy and daddy pay for his schooling.... However he's the most grateful and helpful guys I've met and yes he's on these forums..... Always willing to help out and will never deny he had help.... Good for him yet he helps to PAY it FORWARD by helping out in many other ways......
 
How would you measure safety then?

As you like to point out, it takes a sharp pilot to fly a 1900 in the mountains. I'd agree. But there aren't any statistics that back up your statement that having a 1500 hour CA is unsafe in that situation.

I'd say that you measure safety with how many links you run through in the chain that creates an accident. The more links you run through, and the more missed opportunities you pissed away because of poor judgment, inexperience or simply bad luck make for a less safe situation. How far have YOU seen things go before you finally put a stop to being a lawn dart? The faster you catch mistakes and problems, the safer a flight is. You could be on the brink of crashing the entire flight and if you land safely in the end, by your metric it was a completely safe flight.
 
The 1900 is a much simpler aircraft than the jets we fly, but they're flying down in the crap, with no moving map, no GPS and no autopilot. It takes a much better pilot to fly the 1900 than it does to fly a jet.

Uh and how do you compare a metro driver to a 1900 driver? sarcasm tag please
 
Rather interesting..... I'll let ya dig that hole for yourself with this comment....

I'll just say i know only ONE guy who had mommy and daddy pay for his schooling.... However he's the most grateful and helpful guys I've met and yes he's on these forums..... Always willing to help out and will never deny he had help.... Good for him yet he helps to PAY it FORWARD by helping out in many other ways......

I was being sarcastic in my whole comment
 
You could be on the brink of crashing the entire flight and if you land safely in the end, by your metric it was a completely safe flight.


On the flip side, you could have a very competent crew that gets really unlucky with a mechanical failure, such as the UAL DC-10 crash. Which oh by the way was a very high time CA. Maybe being high time is unsafe?
 
On the flip side, you could have a very competent crew that gets really unlucky with a mechanical failure, such as the UAL DC-10 crash. Which oh by the way was a very high time CA. Maybe being high time is unsafe?

You're aware you just tied bad luck and high time pilots together, right? That would be a spurious statement at the very best.

I factored in luck to my formula, if you're re-read my post.
 
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