Acting as Safety Pilot

[SkyDreamer]

Sorry to keep on an issue that has been addressed in a few different threads, but I could not find this particular question addressed since it is not so much about "logging" the time. Ques: Can a currently rated CFII (ASEL) without a "High Performance" endorsement act as a safety pilot for a currently rated commercial pilot (and owner) of a high performance single-engine aircraft (this person does have the necessary high performance endorsement) wanting to shoot practice approaches? The side issue/question is then, how would this time be logged, and can any of it be considered "dual given?". Thanks for your help on this one!

Second Question (maybe should have used a seperate thread): Is a BFR seperate and apart from "currency to fly pax?" (i.e. if the BFR flight did not include the 3 T/O's and Landings, I would assume you still need to do the required T/O's and Landings before carrying any pax. Thanks again!

 

[jrh]

Ques: Can a currently rated CFII (ASEL) without a "High Performance" endorsement act as a safety pilot for a currently rated commercial pilot (and owner) of a high performance single-engine aircraft (this person does have the necessary high performance endorsement) wanting to shoot practice approaches?

Yes, the CFII could act as a safety pilot, but could not act as, or log, PIC time for the flight, because they are not qualified to act as PIC if they don't have the high performance endorsement. To be a safety pilot all they need is a simple "airplane single engine land" (category and class) pilot certificate.

The side issue/question is then, how would this time be logged, and can any of it be considered "dual given?".

Well...was any dual being given? Be careful not to confuse being a safety pilot who happens to be a CFII with a CFII who is giving instruction. They are two totally seperate activities. If the guy is acting as a safety pilot, log it like a safety pilot would. If the guy is giving instruction, log it as instruction given.

With regard to needing a high performance endorsement to act as an instructor--you don't legally need to have the endorsement. However, how will you explain yourself to the FAA if an incident occurs and they ask you why you were teaching in a plane you weren't qualified to fly yourself? If you can come up with a reasonable explanation, go for it...if not, don't.

Second Question (maybe should have used a seperate thread): Is a BFR seperate and apart from "currency to fly pax?" (i.e. if the BFR flight did not include the 3 T/O's and Landings, I would assume you still need to do the required T/O's and Landings before carrying any pax. Thanks again!

Your assumption is correct...having a BFR and having 3 takeoffs and landings in 90 days are two completely seperate issues. They both must be accomplished before carrying pax.

 

[In2ition]

Sky,

Heres is my take on the questions, and my references.

1. No, you cannot log PIC or give dual in an aircraft that requires the PIC to have additional training or endorcements.

2. You need to have 3 takeoffs and landings prior to transporting passengers. You can fly by yourself or for business after a BFR but to put pax in you need those magic 3 T/O and Landings.

61.51 (e)
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
61.31 (f)

(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.
61.57

a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and
(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.


Good Luck

 

[meritflyer]

Someone needs their high performance.

 

[Stoneage]

If you have Category and Class you can log it as PIC or SIC. Logging PIC and acting as PIC are not the same thing.

see 61.51(e) (iii), 61.55(a) (1) and 91.109(b) (1)

 

[SteveC]

If you have Category and Class you can log it as PIC or SIC. Logging PIC and acting as PIC are not the same thing.

see 61.51(e) (iii), 61.55(a) (1) and 91.109(b) (1)

Are you sure about that? The safety pilot is not the sole manipulator of the controls, so he must be the acting PIC in order to log it as PIC. He can log it as SIC only, and the pilot flying must be the acting PIC in charge of the flight.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

1. To act as a safety pilot, all you need are category and class ratings. 91.109(b). The only other thing you need is a current medical because a safety pilot is considered a required crewmember.

2. When a safety pilot logs PIC, it is under 61.51(e)(1)(iii) - "acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... regulations under which the flight is conducted."

Read that craefully, this is one of those very few times that in order to log PIC you must be acting as PIC. And in order to act as PIC, you need currency and the applicable endorsements.

As a couple of others pointed out, logging SIC under 61.51(f)(2) is an option.

 

[In2ition]

As a couple of others pointed out, logging SIC under 61.51(f)(2) is an option.

Be very careful about logging SIC time wiothout formal training or endorcements. Airlines and Corporate look at that very carefully to see if it is truly legit time. If you are talking about logging just a few hours of twin time I would just go for the learning aspect and leave it out of the logbook all together. You can rent a twin or find someone who nees an MEI in a light twin and build time up that way. In the long run fanagaling (cant spell that) all sorts of things to log just a few hours is probably to much effort and not enough return.

Good Luck

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Be very careful about logging SIC time wiothout formal training or endorcements. Airlines and Corporate look at that very carefully to see if it is truly legit time. If you are talking about logging just a few hours of twin time I would just go for the learning aspect and leave it out of the logbook all together. You can rent a twin or find someone who nees an MEI in a light twin and build time up that way. In the long run fanagaling (cant spell that) all sorts of things to log just a few hours is probably to much effort and not enough return.

Good Luck

Logging it as SIC is perfectly acceptable in this situation. The regs were referenced above.

 

[SkyDreamer]

Thanks for your responses - you have confirmed what I understood to be the case from previous posts. This website has been the greatest resource and I can't thank you enough. Of course, Meritflyer has supplied the most succinct answer.... I plan on the SIC route - have a friend who has been temporarily laid off and simply wants to keep up his Instument currency until he is recalled - it helps that he is part owner in a 182. Later...

 

[nosehair]

Sorry to keep on an issue that has been addressed in a few different threads, but I could not find this particular question addressed since it is not so much about "logging" the time. Ques: Can a currently rated CFII (ASEL) without a "High Performance" endorsement act as a safety pilot for a currently rated commercial pilot (and owner) of a high performance single-engine aircraft (this person does have the necessary high performance endorsement) wanting to shoot practice approaches? The side issue/question is then, how would this time be logged, and can any of it be considered "dual given?". Thanks for your help on this one!

I'm not sure you got your question answered. A CFI can log as PIC any time he gives instruction. He does not have to be the PIC if the pilot receiving instruction can and is acting as PIC. The CFI also does not have to be qualified to act as PIC. A brand new CFI who has never flown anything but a C-172 and 172RG can be the instructor in a tailwheel or HP or ANY ASEL. He cannot ACT as PIC, but he can log it. 61.51(e)(3)

 

[exleardriver]

1. To act as a safety pilot, all you need are category and class ratings. 91.109(b). The only other thing you need is a current medical because a safety pilot is considered a required crewmember.

2. When a safety pilot logs PIC, it is under 61.51(e)(1)(iii) - "acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... regulations under which the flight is conducted."

Read that craefully, this is one of those very few times that in order to log PIC you must be acting as PIC. And in order to act as PIC, you need currency and the applicable endorsements.

As a couple of others pointed out, logging SIC under 61.51(f)(2) is an option.

this is correct. a safety pilot lacking the hp endorsement may not act as pic per 61.31(f)..because as above, a safety pilot logs pic under 61.51(e)(1)(ii) and states that the safety pilot must be acting as pic. 61.31(f) prevents this pilot from the ability to do so. likewise, per midlife, to log sic is an option, per 61.51(f)(2).

where i'm perhaps stuck is the assertion that he may not log pic as an authorized instructor. 61.51(e)(3) would seem to suggest that although unable to act as pic, he may log pic while acting as an authorized instructor, as nosehair has suggested. while the instructor could not be authorized to give a high performance endorsement, lacking one himself..what's to prevent him from giving instrument instruction? going to 61.195(b)(1) under 'flight instructor limitations', it only mentions that the instructor must hold the appropriate category and class ratings (and a type rating if appropriate). is this to be interpreted to include all applicable endorsements as well? :bandit:

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

where i'm perhaps stuck is the assertion that he may not log pic as an authorized instructor. 61.51(e)(3) would seem to suggest that although unable to act as pic, he may log pic while acting as an authorized instructor, as nosehair has suggested.:

Nosehair is right. I'm not sure who made the assertion that he couldn't. My answer never talked about "giving instruction" because I didn't read the OP as saying that he was providing instruction, just acting as a safety pilot.

I wasn't dealing with the dual issue, the answer to which comes down to, were you giving instruction or just acting as a safety pilot?" It's what you are actually doing, not just what certificate you have, that count to answer that part of the question.

 

[exleardriver]

Nosehair is right. I'm not sure who made the assertion that he couldn't. My answer never talked about "giving instruction" because I didn't read the OP as saying that he was providing instruction, just acting as a safety pilot.

I wasn't dealing with the dual issue, the answer to which comes down to, were you giving instruction or just acting as a safety pilot?" It's what you are actually doing, not just what certificate you have, that count to answer that part of the question.

i thought so. true..i knew you didn't address the question of dual..but after lending your assistance in the other post, good to know you support my own reading of this, as well as nosehair's..i just couldn't find anything that would disallow it. :bandit:

 

[Nihon_Ni]

I'm not sure you got your question answered. A CFI can log as PIC any time he gives instruction. He does not have to be the PIC if the pilot receiving instruction can and is acting as PIC. The CFI also does not have to be qualified to act as PIC. A brand new CFI who has never flown anything but a C-172 and 172RG can be the instructor in a tailwheel or HP or ANY ASEL. He cannot ACT as PIC, but he can log it. 61.51(e)(3)

I don't this this is true. Here's a clip from the FAA's FAQ on part 61.1 that talks about a flight review:

QUESTION: The situation is a flight instructor has asked the question whether he can give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane and yet he has not previously met the additional training requirements for operating a tailwheel airplane [i.e., § 61.31(i)].

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(2); § 61.56(c)(1); No, a flight instructor cannot give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane unless he has complied with § 61.31(i). Per § 61.56(c)(1), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . by an authorized instructor . . . .” Per § 61.1(b)(2)(ii), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate . . . .” The flight instructor would not be considered an “authorized instructor” for giving a flight review in a tailwheel airplane.
{Q&A-551}



Part 61.51(b)(2)(iv) tells us to record: Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

Since newbie C-172 CFI is not an authorized instructor in a TW or HP, it is not flight training. I guess it's flying with someone who is telling you what to do and charging you for it but can't do it himself.

I had a professor that fit that description.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I don't this this is true. Here's a clip from the FAA's FAQ on part 61.1 that talks about a flight review:

QUESTION: The situation is a flight instructor has asked the question whether he can give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane and yet he has not previously met the additional training requirements for operating a tailwheel airplane [i.e., § 61.31(i)].

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(2); § 61.56(c)(1); No, a flight instructor cannot give a flight review in a tailwheel airplane unless he has complied with § 61.31(i). Per § 61.56(c)(1), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . by an authorized instructor . . . .” Per § 61.1(b)(2)(ii), it states, in pertinent part, “. . . in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate . . . .” The flight instructor would not be considered an “authorized instructor” for giving a flight review in a tailwheel airplane.
{Q&A-551}



Part 61.51(b)(2)(iv) tells us to record: Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

Since newbie C-172 CFI is not an authorized instructor in a TW or HP, it is not flight training. I guess it's flying with someone who is telling you what to do and charging you for it but can't do it himself.

I had a professor that fit that description.

John Lynch's personal opinions on a number of topics, sometimes at odds with the regulations and long-standing FAA Legal opinions, is probably one of the reasons that the FAQ was removed and people told not to rely on it.

 

[CDVdriver]

Please don't log SIC time in an airplane that you don't have an endorsement for.
There are too many things wrong with that picture.

 

[butt]

Please don't log SIC time in an airplane that you don't have an endorsement for.
There are too many things wrong with that picture.

whats wrong with the picture? Where does it say in the regs you must have an endorsement in the plane to log SIC time? Just because it seems fishy, doesn't necessarily mean it's illegal.

 

[mastermags]

Logging it as SIC is perfectly acceptable in this situation. The regs were referenced above.

I agree also, but the FAA inspector looking through my logbook did not. I acted safety pilot for a guy in his 182 many moons ago and I did not have a HP at the time, so I logged it as SIC. On my CFI checkride the inspector questioned where I had my 2 hours of SIC time from and we debated the legality of it for a while. I referenced all the regs above but he was not convinced. I didn't get in any trouble, but he advised me not to put those 2 hours on any 8710 forms in the future.

Bottom line... even if you think it's technically legal, it may not be the right thing to do and the FAA might not like it.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Bottom line... even if you think it's technically legal, it may not be the right thing to do and the FAA might not like it.

Bottom line - the inspector needs recurrent training.

Sorry, I don't but the "yes, it's perfectly legal, and, yes, the FAA officially says it's the right way to do it, but some guy into abusing power might not like it" as a basis for not doing something correctly.

What if he didn't happen to like that you logged solo time when you were on your solo cross countries?