4 in a 172?

If weight is constant then an airplane with a further aft CG actually weighs less then an aircraft with a fore CG location. How? Thats because the horizontal stabilator creates (aerodynamic) weight, this gets added to the total wieght that the wing really does feel. The further aft the CG the less 'weight' the horizontal stabalizer has to produce to keep the aircraft level.

The reason why the aircraft stalls faster is because it needs more of an AoA to maintain that weight at equal speeds. For example at 5 degrees AoA and 90 knots this airplane creates 3000# of lift. For straight and level flight there would need to be 3000# pulling the aircraft down. Now if the aircraft is loaded to 2500# that AoA and speed would actually make that aircraft climb. So to stop the climb you would have to reduce AoA, reduce speed or a combination of both. These speeds in the POH are most of the time dictated off of max gross weight.

In reality everyone is flying the aircraft faster then they should because they don't take into account the weight they don't have in the aircraft when they are alone or with a light load. People all know about the change of Va with speed but they don't know this also relates to most of the other reference speeds also.

After I just sat here for an hour and a half and typed and deleted 6 different LONG paragraphs trying to argue my point, I came to a conclusion. Your indicated airspeed will be the same for any given weight, but the actual speed across the ground and the angle of attack required to maintain that speed will vary with weight differences. If your aircraft weighs 1540# the angle of attack required for T/O will be less than an aircraft weighing 1670# even though the IAS will be the same. This is due to the airflow across the hor. stab. More airflow is required to compensate for the increase in weight. It just takes an aircraft longer to reach that magic speed with increased weight. Thus, my reasoning for more airspeed when actually it's the same IAS. I was just thinking about it wrong. On landing, with increased weight, you'll need increased AoA even though your IAS will be the same as always. Your forward track across the ground will be faster though with increased weight. We both were thinking the same thing, but I didn't explain correctly. I should have told him, "just remember, AoA, AoA and more AoA with more load.

I have found that during my CFI training that I actually know what I'm talking about, the hard part is explaining what's in my head correctly. Cessnaflyer, thanks for responding, I can now correctly explain this when it comes up during my initial.
 
Cessnaflyer, I never knew those speeds were done at full weight.

now that I think about it, it all makes sense...

during my training I flew 152, and we were always MTOW at around 1600 lbs... we would rotate at 50, the given rotation speed.

when I go MTOW on a 172, or an archer, I always add 5-10 knots to the speed... now that I think about it, it shouldn't be necessary. However, I have tried taking off with like 5 extra knots few times, and the stall buzzer went off at rotation speed +5. How do ya explain that? I'm not trying to challenge ya, just asking :)
 
Cessnaflyer, I never knew those speeds were done at full weight.

now that I think about it, it all makes sense...

during my training I flew 152, and we were always MTOW at around 1600 lbs... we would rotate at 50, the given rotation speed.

when I go MTOW on a 172, or an archer, I always add 5-10 knots to the speed... now that I think about it, it shouldn't be necessary. However, I have tried taking off with like 5 extra knots few times, and the stall buzzer went off at rotation speed +5. How do ya explain that? I'm not trying to challenge ya, just asking :)

Well, you can stall an airplane at ANY airspeed and at ANY attitude, by exceeding the maximum G-available (or basically pulling back on the stick or yoke too much). It may be related to the rate at which you rotate, if you are pulling back on the yoke too fast? That should only be a transient thing, though. Does the horn go off almost immediately, once you reach the desired pitch attitude?

Of course the stall warning horn probably comes on a few knots above the actual stall (loss of control effectiveness, loss of lift, etc). Maybe the designer felt that this was all of the buffer that was necessary in the worst case Max gross weight scenario.
 
After I just sat here for an hour and a half and typed and deleted 6 different LONG paragraphs trying to argue my point, I came to a conclusion. Your indicated airspeed will be the same for any given weight, but the actual speed across the ground and the angle of attack required to maintain that speed will vary with weight differences. If your aircraft weighs 1540# the angle of attack required for T/O will be less than an aircraft weighing 1670# even though the IAS will be the same. This is due to the airflow across the hor. stab. More airflow is required to compensate for the increase in weight. It just takes an aircraft longer to reach that magic speed with increased weight. Thus, my reasoning for more airspeed when actually it's the same IAS. I was just thinking about it wrong. On landing, with increased weight, you'll need increased AoA even though your IAS will be the same as always. Your forward track across the ground will be faster though with increased weight. We both were thinking the same thing, but I didn't explain correctly. I should have told him, "just remember, AoA, AoA and more AoA with more load.

I have found that during my CFI training that I actually know what I'm talking about, the hard part is explaining what's in my head correctly. Cessnaflyer, thanks for responding, I can now correctly explain this when it comes up during my initial.

I think you might need to refine that a little more because I don't know how ground speed is related to any of the physics of flight besides when you come into contact with the ground.
 
Your indicated airspeed will be the same for any given weight, but the actual speed across the ground...required to maintain that speed will vary with weight differences.

Err......no. Your weight cannot affect the relationship between your IAS and your groundspeed. Only wind can do that. (We're assuming that IAS = TAS).


Your indicated airspeed will be the same for any given weight, but angle of attack required to maintain that speed will vary with weight differences.
It's true that a given IAS will require different AOA's for different weights.

If your aircraft weighs 1540# the angle of attack required for T/O will be less than an aircraft weighing 1670# even though the IAS will be the same. This is due to the airflow across the hor. stab.
No, the horizontal stabilizer has nothing to do with this. It has to do with the requirement that lift = weight. For a lighter aircraft, there is less lift required, so you can get the needed lift at either the same airspeed and smaller AOA, or a higher AOA and lower airspeed.

I was just thinking about it wrong. On landing, with increased weight, you'll need increased AoA even though your IAS will be the same as always.
If you hold your airspeed constant, you will indeed be at a higher AOA at the heavier weight. However, your margin over the stall speed will be lower than during your light approaches, if you use the same airspeed in both situations. What is probably the case is that your light weight approaches are too fast for the weight.

Your forward track across the ground will be faster though with increased weight.
Not at the same IAS, no.


CessnaFlyer has this right.
 
Guess what, when people start paying you to fly, you may find that some are going to expect you to fly at or above MGTOW as often as possible.


The few times I did the W and B and was above MGTOW either people or bags were left behind. You should NEVER fly over MGTOW or go over ANY limitation.

If the original poster does not feel comfortable with four people then don't take four people! If he doesn't feel comfortable doing it then he doesn't need to!
 
Err......no. Your weight cannot affect the relationship between your IAS and your groundspeed. Only wind can do that. (We're assuming that IAS = TAS).


It's true that a given IAS will require different AOA's for different weights.

No, the horizontal stabilizer has nothing to do with this. It has to do with the requirement that lift = weight. For a lighter aircraft, there is less lift required, so you can get the needed lift at either the same airspeed and smaller AOA, or a higher AOA and lower airspeed.

If you hold your airspeed constant, you will indeed be at a higher AOA at the heavier weight. However, your margin over the stall speed will be lower than during your light approaches, if you use the same airspeed in both situations. What is probably the case is that your light weight approaches are too fast for the weight.

Not at the same IAS, no.


CessnaFlyer has this right.


It's been a couple of days since I posted this and I have had more time to think about it. I think that I over thought what I was trying to explain and it came out incorrectly. No I am just confused. :banghead: Answer me this: Does increased weight and the resulting farther aft CG not increase the stall speed of an aircraft? I've always believed this to be true but now 2 people on here are telling me that this is not the case. Please explain.
 
Cessnaflyer, I just went back and re-read your post again and it came through my mind in a whole different way this time. (I should stop reading and replying at 2:30am.:cwm27:) It makes sense, complete sense. But the way you replied it sounded like you said that increased weight does not increase the stall speed. That's what got me confused. You went on to write, "The reason why the aircraft stalls faster is because it needs more of an AoA to maintain that weight at equal speeds." Does the statement "...why the aircraft stalls faster..." not equal "added weight increase stall speed?" Doesn't an aircraft, (lets say a 152) loaded to max gross of 1670 not stall sooner than the same aircraft loaded at 1350? The stalling sooner is a result of a greater angle of attack needed to keep heavier loaded aircraft in the air as opposed to a lighter load on the same aircraft. Is this not correct. or am I just thinking about this all wrong?
 
Cessnaflyer, I just went back and re-read your post again and it came through my mind in a whole different way this time. (I should stop reading and replying at 2:30am.:cwm27:) It makes sense, complete sense. But the way you replied it sounded like you said that increased weight does not increase the stall speed. That's what got me confused. You went on to write, "The reason why the aircraft stalls faster is because it needs more of an AoA to maintain that weight at equal speeds." Does the statement "...why the aircraft stalls faster..." not equal "added weight increase stall speed?" Doesn't an aircraft, (lets say a 152) loaded to max gross of 1670 not stall sooner than the same aircraft loaded at 1350? The stalling sooner is a result of a greater angle of attack needed to keep heavier loaded aircraft in the air as opposed to a lighter load on the same aircraft. Is this not correct. or am I just thinking about this all wrong?

Now that sounds like a better reply :)

And yes it will stall at a higher airspeed with more weight and your new post is correct.

A good equation is Speed x √new weight ÷ gross weight

With that it will show you a change in speed you are questioning with the change in weight.

Say our Vso stall speed is 49 knots at gross of 2150. Now we are flying in a new weight of 1950 so it will look like this:

49 x √1950 ÷ 2150 = 46.6

We can now also apply this new weight and stall speed to an approach speed. So originally the gross weight approach speed based off of 1.3 x Vso is 63.7 knots. With the new weight and doing the 1.3 x Vso off of the correct Vso for the lighter load we get 60.58. As you see there is not much of a change but there can be a considerable change as you move to an aircraft where the aircrafts load carrying capabilities increases.

Pilots should do the math and find the correct speeds for approach and maneuvering speeds because these can become critical as you are approaching the limits of the aircraft or pilots abilities.
 
Does increased weight and the resulting farther aft CG not increase the stall speed of an aircraft? I've always believed this to be true but now 2 people on here are telling me that this is not the case. Please explain.

Increased weight does increase the stall speed, but note that this doesn't necessarily move the CG anywhere. What if you added the extra weight right where the CG already was?

However, a rear CG *reduces* the stall speed. Our stall speeds on aircraft are measured with a forward CG for that reason.
 
Cessnaflyer, I just went back and re-read your post again and it came through my mind in a whole different way this time. (I should stop reading and replying at 2:30am.:cwm27:) It makes sense, complete sense. But the way you replied it sounded like you said that increased weight does not increase the stall speed. That's what got me confused. You went on to write, "The reason why the aircraft stalls faster is because it needs more of an AoA to maintain that weight at equal speeds." Does the statement "...why the aircraft stalls faster..." not equal "added weight increase stall speed?" Doesn't an aircraft, (lets say a 152) loaded to max gross of 1670 not stall sooner than the same aircraft loaded at 1350? The stalling sooner is a result of a greater angle of attack needed to keep heavier loaded aircraft in the air as opposed to a lighter load on the same aircraft. Is this not correct. or am I just thinking about this all wrong?

Now it sounds like you've got it. I always think about the lift equation when I think about stall speeds. So for the example of 1 g flight, lift is equal to the weight of the airplane. The wing must produce the same lift as the weight.

Okay, well, how do we produce lift? Let's look at the lift equation: L=1/2*CL*rho*V^2*S. Okay, the 1/2 is a constant, we can't affect that. The rho is the density of the air, so on a given day that the density is whatever it is. We can affect it by changing altitudes, but let's ignore it for right now and assume that we have to fly at a particular altitude. "S" is the planform area of the wing (which is like the "bird's eye view area"). You can change that on some airplanes with high lift devices (moving flaps, variable geometry wings like the F-14, etc.) but for the sake of arguement let's assume we don't have any of those options. What does that leave?

Well, it leaves 2 quantities, both of which the pilot can affect. The first is "V squared", which is just velocity. We can certainly affect that by speeding up or slowing down. So let's look at the other term. That's CL. CL is the "coefficient of lift" and it depends upon several factors, but the biggest two are the angle of attack, and the shape of the wing. Let's for sake of arguement throw out the shape of the wing, and assume that we aren't going to play around with flap settings or variable sweep, or slats, etc. and that leaves one major factor for CL. That major factor is angle of attack (sometimes written with the greek letter alpha or written as AOA.)

Ok, so now I have a desired amount of lift that I am trying to produce (it's equal to whatever my weight is), and I have two quantities that I can change to produce it: velocity and CL (which depends mostly on AOA). Unfortunately, for a given wing, there is a maximum value that my CL can obtain. The CL increases as I increase AOA, up to some "critical AOA" (also called the "stall AOA") and if I increase AOA any more past that, CL DECREASES (fairly rapidly). That maximum CL establishes a minimum speed at which I can generate a particular amount of lift.

So let's see how this works with some trial numbers. Let's imagine a wing in which the CL is equal to .08 per degree of angle of attack, and imagine it has a stall or critical angle of attack of about 15 degrees. That means the MAXIMUM possible CL is 1.2 (which is .08*15).

Ok, let's imagine this wing is on a 2000lbs. airplane, with a 20 square foot wing planform area (that's S), and imagine that the density is sea level standard day (which happens to be .002377 slugs/cubic foot). What is the minimum speed at which I could produce that 1000lbs. of lift?

Well, that would occur at the maximum CL of 1.2. Here's how: rearranging the lift equation to solve for velocity I can divide both sides of the equation through by 1/2*CL*rho*S, and I get V^2=L/(1/2*CL*rho*S). Then for the numbers I gave that means v^2=2000/(.5*1.2*.002377*20)=70116 ft squared/second squared. But I want velocity, not velocity squared, so if I take the square root of that I get 265 ft/second, which is equal to 157 knots. So for this particular airplane, loaded this way, the stall speed is 157 knots.

Now, if I made it a 1000lbs airplane but kept everything else the same, I could STILL fly it at 157 knots if I wanted to: I'll just rearrange the lift equation again to solve for CL: CL=L/(.5*rho*S*V^2). So, if I had the same plane flying at 157 knots (265 ft/second) the CL required would be: 1000/(.5*.002377*20*265*265)=.599. Since I get .08/degree of AoA for my CL, that equates to an angle of attack of .559/.08 or approximately 7.5 degrees. So to keep the SPEED the same, but reduce the lift produced (which is what I would need to do to fly 1 g at a lighter weight), I need to reduce the angle of attack.

One last exercise. Since we know that the stall speed is 157 KTAS at 2000lbs, let's calculate what it would be at 1000lbs of lift. Rearranging the same way I did two paragraphs ago V^2=L/(.5*Cl*rho*S). That's V^2=1000/(.5*1.2*.002377*20). Did you notice I used the MAXIMUM CL of 1.2 since I'm talking about stall? So V^2=35058, which means V=187 ft/sec. 187 ft/second is the same as 111 knots true. The weight goes up, so the stall speed goes up, the weight goes down, the stall speed goes down.

But actually it's not really the WEIGHT, it's the amount of LIFT that you want to produce. It's just that for most flight conditions we want to produe an amount of lift that is equal to our weight. Sometimes, though, we want to produce more lift than our weight, like in a turn. For example in a two g turn, we want to produce twice our weight in lift. So that 1000lbs. airplane with a stall speed of 111 knots at 1 g, would have the same stall speed as the 2000lbs airplane (157 knots) if it were in a 2 g turn.
 
OK, thank god. This is what I thought all along. I thought I was in real trouble if I've made it this far and didn't understand how weight affects an aircraft. So back to my original post. I suggested with a heavier load that he increase his speed a bit to get away from the increased stall speed. What was wrong with this statement if we all just verified that indeed, stall speed does increase with added weight (even if not by that much). I suggested this due to his very low time and not flying fully loaded before. It was to provide more of a safety margin. (I'm in no way saying that you don't know what your doing aeronaut.:D )
 
he increase his speed a bit to get away from the increased stall speed. What was wrong with this statement

I believe that the only mild criticism offered to this advice is that most reference speeds already assume max gross weight, so no adjustment is really needed, as long as you are using those speeds. However, someone who is used to flying light might perhaps be rotating early and flying approaches too slow based on the light weight. In that case, he would indeed need to increase his speeds to the ones recommended for max gross. But no higher.

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OK, thank god. This is what I thought all along. I thought I was in real trouble if I've made it this far and didn't understand how weight affects an aircraft. So back to my original post. I suggested with a heavier load that he increase his speed a bit to get away from the increased stall speed. What was wrong with this statement if we all just verified that indeed, stall speed does increase with added weight (even if not by that much). I suggested this due to his very low time and not flying fully loaded before. It was to provide more of a safety margin. (I'm in no way saying that you don't know what your doing aeronaut.:D )

Oh, no what you're saying makes perfect sense, now. I thought you were saying that an increased take-off speed was required. It shouldn't be, since if the manufacturer only published one speed that speed should have been calculated at max gross take-off weight, since that's the worst case scenario. Nothing wrong with padding it by a couple of knots for mom and the kids as a technique, though, it just isn't required.

Actually, the only thing that you may want to be careful about if you increase your rotation speed is that it's going to take you some more take-off ground run to get there. So keep in mind how much runway is available, and also if there are any obstacles that are a factor if you increase your ground run (to increase your takeoff speed), because that increases the climb that you need to acheive to clear the obstacle.
 
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