CFI or Contract Pilot

[crazynut52]

I know this has probably been discussed before, but to be legal, if a student calls me and wants me to fly with him on a business trip, I can do it as a contract pilot, but I can not do it as a flight instructor? Someone please clarify....

 

[Sidious]

Im interested in this as well. I would view it as just providing your pilot services (if the student provides the a/c) so it wouldn't matter what you call it.

 

[PanJet]

I had an interesting situation once where a guy I did not know from out of town called me and asked me to give him an "IFR refresher flight" in one of our airplanes down to an airport about 60 miles away by air (2 1/2 hour drive by car), to pick up his plane he stranded there earlier that week. He would then "pay" me for my flight back as well, including the entire rental cost of the airplane.

I turned it down because the obvious intent of the trip was to get a ride somewhere, and since he was not asking for just my pilot services and providing the plane himself, I thought it was a bit fishy. Maybe I was wrong, but better safe than sorry I felt.

 

[CFIse]

I know this has probably been discussed before, but to be legal, if a student calls me and wants me to fly with him on a business trip, I can do it as a contract pilot, but I can not do it as a flight instructor? Someone please clarify....

Whose plane? That's the issue. If it's the students plane you can provide pilot services (contract pilot) or instructor services with no problem.

If the plane is being rented from somewhere and you can honestly say you have nothing to do with the rental then again you can provide pilot services or instructional services with no problem.

Your confusion may be that a "student" cannot walk into the FBO you work at and rent a plane and have you "instruct" them over to another airport so they can conduct business (despite the fact that people do it all the time). But you can't provide pilot services in that situation either.

If the plane and pilot come from the same place the operation needs an operating certificate. If they come from separate places no operating certificate is needed. The definition of "separate" is where things get sticky, because it's pretty rare that somebody will rent somebody a plane and say "that's all right, find any pilot you like and they can fly it".

 

[CFIse]

I turned it down because the obvious intent of the trip was to get a ride somewhere, and since he was not asking for just my pilot services and providing the plane himself, I thought it was a bit fishy. Maybe I was wrong, but better safe than sorry I felt.

You were correct - although plenty of other pilots would have done the flight and not got caught and everybody would have been happy. But "transportation for compensation" was taking place, and that needs an operating certificate.

 

[crazynut52]

In my case, the student owns the aircraft, and has little flight experience. I had a 12k hour pilot tell me what I was doing was illegal. Really got me nervous.

 

[Sidious]

If the plane is being rented from somewhere and you can honestly say you have nothing to do with the rental then again you can provide pilot services or instructional services with no problem.

If you line up a rental, you are providing both the pilot and the a/c thus making it an operation IMO. You cross the line if you or someone connected to you provides the a/c.

 

[CFIse]

In my case, the student owns the aircraft, and has little flight experience. I had a 12k hour pilot tell me what I was doing was illegal. Really got me nervous.

Then you're good to go. You can charge the student money for your commercial pilot skills or your instructional skills.

 

[dc3flyer]

Your confusion may be that a "student" cannot walk into the FBO you work at and rent a plane and have you "instruct" them over to another airport so they can conduct business (despite the fact that people do it all the time). But you can't provide pilot services in that situation either.

So.... if one of my students, an actual student, needs to go to City A to have lunch with a client, and he wants to take a X/C to get there you are saying we can't do that? What if he plans the trip? Why is that different than you telling your student to plan his X/C to an airport with a good restaurant? I say you can do it and sleep well knowing you did your job as an instructor.

Now, I can understand the dilema if said "student" just walks in today and says he "wants to take a lesson" instead of a regular student you fly with.

 

[exleardriver]

Then you're good to go. You can charge the student money for your commercial pilot skills or your instructional skills.

+1.

 

[exleardriver]

So.... if one of my students, an actual student, needs to go to City A to have lunch with a client, and he wants to take a X/C to get there you are saying we can't do that? What if he plans the trip? Why is that different than you telling your student to plan his X/C to an airport with a good restaurant? I say you can do it and sleep well knowing you did your job as an instructor.

Now, I can understand the dilema if said "student" just walks in today and says he "wants to take a lesson" instead of a regular student you fly with.

highlighted portion indicates intent is for business purposes, otherwise the x-country could have been planned elsewhere, correct? why go there? because of a business need that has 'muddied' the water. if the school has an air taxi operators certificate (atco), then the instructor/commercial pilot may be hired to do the flight. otherwise, the intent places the instructor and the school in the position of conducting 'common carriage' - holding out to the public for hire. this sort of thing does happen quite often, i can assure you, just as 91.155(a) cloud clearance requirements are routinely technically 'violated' to varying degrees..but this is the technically correct answer - this flight would not be interpreted as 'legal' by your local fsdo. :bandit:

 

[CFIse]

So.... if one of my students, an actual student, needs to go to City A to have lunch with a client, and he wants to take a X/C to get there you are saying we can't do that? What if he plans the trip? Why is that different than you telling your student to plan his X/C to an airport with a good restaurant? I say you can do it and sleep well knowing you did your job as an instructor.

And you would also have done the job of providing transportation for compensaton. Your student was transported to City A to have lunch with a client, an activity that is wholy unconnected with instruction - the fact that instruction took place along the way doesn't make it anymore or less transportation. It requires an operating certificate.

And I say if you do it, AND YOU GET CAUGHT (a key point) the FAA will have your ticket for conducting an un-certificated Part 135 operation.

 

[butt]

And you would also have done the job of providing transportation for compensaton. Your student was transported to City A to have lunch with a client, an activity that is wholy unconnected with instruction - the fact that instruction took place along the way doesn't make it anymore or less transportation. It requires an operating certificate.

And I say if you do it, AND YOU GET CAUGHT (a key point) the FAA will have your ticket for conducting an un-certificated Part 135 operation.

What if the student is just hungry? Eating is not "wholy" connected to instruction either. There have been times when both myself and my student have not eaten in a while so we decide to plan our cross country to a place that has a restaurant's. Would that be a charter flight too?

The way I see it, as long as some genuine instruction is taking place, the fact that you are ending up at an airport where the student can conduct business, is truly incidental. Now if you were doing "instrument refresher" every day with that same person and transporting him to do business, that would be a different story.

 

[exleardriver]

What if the student is just hungry? Eating is not "wholy" connected to instruction either. There have been times when both myself and my student have not eaten in a while so we decide to plan our cross country to a place that has a restaurant's. Would that be a charter flight too?

The way I see it, as long as some genuine instruction is taking place, the fact that you are ending up at an airport where the student can conduct business, is truly incidental. Now if you were doing "instrument refresher" every day with that same person and transporting him to do business, that would be a different story.

planning a x-country where you can happen to 'eat a burger' on the field is one thing, planning one where there is clearly a personal business-related intent is quite another. why do you have to go where there is a business need to be conducted in the first place, hmm? then that's the obvious primary intent..the location was selected based upon a basic transportation criteria. my advice to you, butt, would be to call your local fsdo and ask for their interpretation first, because that's what's going to matter should you ever become violated in such a scenario. :bandit:

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The way I see it, as long as some genuine instruction is taking place, the fact that you are ending up at an airport where the student can conduct business, is truly incidental.

Just curious: how do you get "truly incidental" from a preplanned business meeting? I'm not sure even the student would agree that the cross country flight was the primary purpose and the $3 Million business deal was "incidental."

BTW, I'm not suggesting that combining a cross country training flight with a personal or business flight is verbotten - I don't think the question can be answered without looking at the specific event - just that analyzing it by saying that the most important reason to be there is "incidental" doesn't seem to cut it.

 

[butt]

planning a x-country where you can happen to 'eat a burger' on the field is one thing, planning one where there is clearly a personal business-related intent is quite another.

Where then is the line drawn between "eating a burger", and "conducting personal business"? What if the student didn't tell the instructor that he had a business meeting to attend. What if he had told the instructor that he wanted a instrument refresher flight that ended at a certain airport, where his daughter would then pick him up and then they'd have lunch or something then drive him home?

why do you have to go where there is a business need to be conducted in the first place, hmm? then that's the obvious primary intent..the location was selected based upon a basic transportation criteria.

When I was getting my instrument rating, on the third leg of the long cross country, we stopped to get fuel, and the plane wouldn't start up again. My instructor called the flight school, and a half hour later, a commercial student and his instructor came to the rescue in the school's Bonanza. They picked us up and returned us home. The next day the same instructor in the Bonanza returned us to the airport where we left the plane, and we finished the cross country. Both times it was after dark, so it's pretty safe to assume the "real" intent of that flight was to rescue us. Was this an illegal charter? There was a student on board both times receiving instruction from an instructor.

One thing I learned in my commercial training is that there is a lot of gray area you can play with when it comes to doing charters. For instance, if a person comes up to you and says "hey, I hear you're taking a trip to Tampa Bay, can you fly me to Mertyl Beach on your way?", you can legally take that person to Mertyl Beach as long as you were intending to go there anyways. Meaning you'd have to make sure you land at Mertyl Beach first, drop the person off, get fuel, maybe spend a few minutes hanging around to prove dropping that person off was incidental to your planned trip, then proceed onto your destination. This was said to me by a DPE, by the way.

my advice to you, butt, would be to call your local fsdo and ask for their interpretation first, because that's what's going to matter should you ever become violated in such a scenario.

You don't have to bother Big Brother FSDO every single time you want to do something.

 

[exleardriver]

Where then is the line drawn between "eating a burger", and "conducting personal business"? What if the student didn't tell the instructor that he had a business meeting to attend. What if he had told the instructor that he wanted a instrument refresher flight that ended at a certain airport, where his daughter would then pick him up and then they'd have lunch or something then drive him home?

didn't tell me he had a business meeting to attend? wasn't legal, but not my fault. done with him. dishonest student? good bye.. :bandit:



When I was getting my instrument rating, on the third leg of the long cross country, we stopped to get fuel, and the plane wouldn't start up again. My instructor called the flight school, and a half hour later, a commercial student and his instructor came to the rescue in the school's Bonanza. They picked us up and returned us home. The next day the same instructor in the Bonanza returned us to the airport where we left the plane, and we finished the cross country. Both times it was after dark, so it's pretty safe to assume the "real" intent of that flight was to rescue us. Was this an illegal charter? There was a student on board both times receiving instruction from an instructor.

flight school owner authorized the pickup..incidental to his business..part 91. it wasn't a holding out 'common carriage' flight for compensation or hire. far 1.1. definition of a 'commercial operator'...'the test applied is whether the carriage by air is merely incidental to the person's other business or is, in itself, a major enterprise for profit'. :bandit:

One thing I learned in my commercial training is that there is a lot of gray area you can play with when it comes to doing charters. For instance, if a person comes up to you and says "hey, I hear you're taking a trip to Tampa Bay, can you fly me to Mertyl Beach on your way?", you can legally take that person to Mertyl Beach as long as you were intending to go there anyways. Meaning you'd have to make sure you land at Mertyl Beach first, drop the person off, get fuel, maybe spend a few minutes hanging around to prove dropping that person off was incidental to your planned trip, then proceed onto your destination. This was said to me by a DPE, by the way.

of course. that person may share expenses with you. it's not for compensation or hire. good. :bandit:



You don't have to bother Big Brother FSDO every single time you want to do something.

:yeahthat: lol.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

One thing I learned in my commercial training is that there is a lot of gray area you can play with when it comes to doing charters.

You're right. But if someone complains (the FAA after a deviation, incident or accident; your customer after an unhappy experience; the local 135 operator who paid the bucks and jumped through the hoops and is on the lookout for those who didn't) and the FAA doesn't like it, take a wild guess on which side of the 135 fence the cases go.

IMO, the area is =intentionally= gray for a reason - to let the FAA close up the "loopholes" thought up by "smart operators" (in more ways than one) who thought they could get away with something.

Yep it's gray, with the prevailing rule being, "if it quacks like a duck..."

(I won't even comment on tthe Myrtle Beach scenario, although I admit I would truly enjoy watching the face of the FAA Attorney during the informal conference on the proposed certificate action as the pilot gave that explanation

excleardriver, remember that "shared expense" also requires "shared purpose")

 

[exleardriver]

(I won't even comment on tthe Myrtle Beach scenario, although I admit I would truly enjoy watching the face of the FAA Attorney during the informal conference on the proposed certificate action as the pilot gave that explanation

lol..

excleardriver, remember that "shared expense" also requires "shared purpose")

oh yes, quite correct. mine was actually a hypothetical of how such a trip could be accomplished, but not under the exact circumstances he'd described with the drop-off, etc..just that pilots may indeed share expenses for flights, and with common purpose. :bandit:

 

[butt]

(I won't even comment on tthe Myrtle Beach scenario, although I admit I would truly enjoy watching the face of the FAA Attorney during the informal conference on the proposed certificate action as the pilot gave that explanation

excleardriver, remember that "shared expense" also requires "shared purpose")

I take that to mean you don't think it's legal?

If the pilot had truly intended to stop at Myrtle Beach to get gas and look around on the way to Tampa bay, would the charter still be illegal?

If the idea popped into the pilots head to stop at Myrtle Beach the day before the passenger asked, it would be incidental, right? If the idea popped into the pilots head to go there the day after the passenger asked, it would be illegal, correct?

How on earth is a court of law going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you got the idea to go there the day before or the day after the passenger approached you? There is absolutly no way. I was told that as long as you land at Myrtle Beach first and spend some time there, it's enough to show to a judge that the stop was part of your intended trip. I don't have an FAA source on any of this, but like I said before, it was told to me by a DPE.