I hate NDBs

TheAlchemist said:
For VOR's there's a rule I learned from AOPA that is pretty dumb proof to avoid reverse sensing:

Always match your obs with your HI.
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I was taught the same thing, always keep the obs in the same 180' hemisphere as your DI to avoid reverse sensing.

I was trained and live/work in New Zealand. Only the main centre airports have a VOR otherwise it is the NDB. So probably 40% of approaches are NDB. I have never done or been trained on a GPS approach. Just today I clocked 800 hours and start my first twin IFR job in two weeks, can't wait! here in NZ it's 2000 hours to be competitive just to fly an ATR. Different world to you lucky folk in the US of A.

Peace
 
Regardless of whether you use them, I think we should still train for them. If you have only done ILS's and some Non-Precs and by non-precs I mean either GPS or heaven forbid a LOC or VOR DME A them what will you think is the worst thing.....Any Non precs. I was made to do the NDB with only a compass and for any of you that have done that, it sucks so bad it is unreal...but you know, LOC, and VOR's are easy to me compared to the NDB so I still think it is a good idea to do them so it will make you a better pilot.

Ohh, and maybe you will use the NDB in the airlines and maybe you won't, but at least for my company you dang sure still train on them. The past 3 days of sim I have done like 2 ILS's, 2 LOC's, 2 NDB's, and a VOR-DME A (which most of them are circirling and we couldn't do them anyway via ops specs but we still trained for it.) So you see our ratio of non-prec to prec approaches. And today we are doing another VOR and a LOC BC....I dont know about the rest of you but I think there are fewer BC approaches than there are NDB's at this moment so go figure. Just my two cents. CHEERS
 
taseal said:
i'm on 335 outbound, and I need to intercept 300 inbound....

right now I have 335 on the HI and the OBS... We need to go inbound, so I put 300 on the bottom of the OBS, and its telling me to turn anywhere from 130 to 210... lets say we pick 180 for a 60 degree intercept...
I turn towards 180.
correct?

edit: yep that seemed to have worked :)
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Bingo. Note that this works regardless of where you are. If you accurately tell the VOR what you want to do, it's guidance will be correct. The important discipline is to look at the HI before deciding on which way to turn.

If, instead of these rules, you try to use visualization techniques to figure out which way to go, you will be very slow and make lots of mistakes.
 
tgrayson said:
Bingo. Note that this works regardless of where you are. If you accurately tell the VOR what you want to do, it's guidance will be correct. The important discipline is to look at the HI before deciding on which way to turn.

If, instead of these rules, you try to use visualization techniques to figure out which way to go, you will be very slow and make lots of mistakes.
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I think I get confused because my instructor will say this....

I am on lets say 030 outbound, and he'll say 'intercept 180 inbound'

wtf dude! how can I get on 180 inbound!!!! what he means is, get on the 360 radial, and track it inbound... instead, he tells me something that totally confuses me.... I mean, i'm sure he knows more then I do, but I swear something is not right when he says that.... I'm pretty sure the controller would tell me what radial to get on and if he wants me to go inbound or outbound, not try to confuse me by telling me which direction I should be heading

on wedn, this is what happened

we were 335 outbound (or inbound, i can't remember) on the Dolphin (MIA) VOR, and he said track 180 outbound, and at 15 DME, arc W...

I got kind of confused cuz I was trying to figure out HOW the hell am I gonna get to 180, it will take forever, not to mention it doesn't make sense... so I hoped he meant 360 outbound, and went there.... while trying to figure out and decipher what he was saying, I forgot about the arc, and got owned pretty much :(
 
taseal said:
I think I get confused because my instructor will say this....

I am on lets say 030 outbound, and he'll say 'intercept 180 inbound'

wtf dude! how can I get on 180 inbound!!!! what he means is, get on the 360 radial, and track it inbound... instead, he tells me something that totally confuses me.... I mean, i'm sure he knows more then I do, but I swear something is not right when he says that.... I'm pretty sure the controller would tell me what radial to get on and if he wants me to go inbound or outbound, not try to confuse me by telling me which direction I should be heading
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The trouble is that most CFIs don't know enough controller lingo to do it correctly.
 
taseal said:
I think I get confused because my instructor will say this....

I am on lets say 030 outbound, and he'll say 'intercept 180 inbound'

wtf dude! how can I get on 180 inbound!!!! what he means is, get on the 360 radial, and track it inbound... instead, he tells me something that totally confuses me.... I mean, i'm sure he knows more then I do, but I swear something is not right when he says that.... I'm pretty sure the controller would tell me what radial to get on and if he wants me to go inbound or outbound, not try to confuse me by telling me which direction I should be heading
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Does he want you to circumnavigate the VOR and get on the south side of it before intercepting the 180 inbound?
 
mtsu_av8er said:
My sim instructor tried to tell me that, and I proved him wrong. That HSI works just like the one in a GA airplane!
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Man I never figured out how to do that! My sim partner used to be at Trans States and said that's how they did arcs and I kind of looked him cross eyed and said, "Are you serious? You know you've not one but two bearing pointers up there...right? Put it on your wing and it takes care of the arc for you!"

I've done them with a straight VOR head, but never with an HSI, I always figured it'd be more confusing than it needed to be.
 
taseal said:
I think I get confused because my instructor will say this....

I am on lets say 030 outbound, and he'll say 'intercept 180 inbound'

wtf dude! how can I get on 180 inbound!!!! what he means is, get on the 360 radial, and track it inbound... instead, he tells me something that totally confuses me.... I mean, i'm sure he knows more then I do, but I swear something is not right when he says that.... I'm pretty sure the controller would tell me what radial to get on and if he wants me to go inbound or outbound, not try to confuse me by telling me which direction I should be heading
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That's not a full statement. You can't just say, "Intercept the 180 degree radial inbound." You've gotta have a DME distance, a direction and the inbound course.

I.E. "Arc west at 10 dme to the 180 degree radial inbound"

Otherwise how are you supposed to know which way to go and at what distance?
 
taseal said:
I think I get confused because my instructor will say this...what he means is, get on the 360 radial, and track it inbound... .... I'm pretty sure the controller would tell me what radial to get on and if he wants me to go inbound or outbound
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You're right. Your instructor is giving you very non-standard instructions.
 
jtrain609 said:
That's not a full statement. You can't just say, "Intercept the 180 degree radial inbound." You've gotta have a DME distance, a direction and the inbound course.
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He's not talking about arcing, he's talking about flying straight to the VOR.
 
killbilly said:
Does he want you to circumnavigate the VOR and get on the south side of it before intercepting the 180 inbound?
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what he really wanted was that he wanted me to get to the North of the VOR....

tell ya what, I should still have the paper I wrote the stuff on, it will say what he exactly said, brb :)
 
Your CFII instructions doesn't make much sense to me! From the 030 radial you could intercept and track the 360 radial either in or outbound. Not the 180 radial unless you fly TO the VOR first then track the 180 outbound.
 
yep... this is clearance he gave me

we are 335 outbound I think (or inbound, I know we were on 335)

intercept and track 180 outbound, and at 15 DME, arc N....

now how could I arc North if I am already North? I could arc either W or E

and he did not want me to circumnavigate to 180, he just wanted me to get on the 360 outbound... if we go to 15 DME on 180 off dolphin, its way out of our training area, we never go there (we'd actually be over the ocean I think)

I mean of course I could get a new instructor, but I just don't wanna do it if its something I'm doing wrong....
 
TheAlchemist said:
Your CFII instructions doesn't make much sense to me! From the 030 radial you could intercept and track the 360 radial either in or outbound. Not the 180 radial unless you fly TO the VOR first then track the 180 outbound.
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EXACTLY! I will bring this upto him today, and see what he says, and what the hell he means...

I hate correcting insturctors, it makes me look like a wise ass

not only this, but now I noticed in the clearance he gave me, he told me to arc north while i'm on the 360 outbound.... how can I arc north? I am north.
 
jtrain609 said:
That's not a full statement. You can't just say, "Intercept the 180 degree radial inbound." You've gotta have a DME distance, a direction and the inbound course.

I.E. "Arc west at 10 dme to the 180 degree radial inbound"

Otherwise how are you supposed to know which way to go and at what distance?
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yeah I know, i'm sorry I'm like talking 2 things at once...

for the arc, clearance was

(were at 335 outbound)

Intercept tack 360 outbound to 15 DME, then arc W to 270 (this was what he means)

what he said was ( i stil have he paper that I wrote the cleanrace on)

Intercept and track 180 heading (i'm not sure if he said heading, but I have 180 out) outbound, at 15 DME, arc North
 
It doesn't make much sense to me.

Maybe you are better off studying this stuff by yourself and explain to your CFII that he's mistaking. Just be polite and he will even thank you. AOPA has some pretty good material on instrument flying.
 
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