I hate NDBs

[taseal]

I'm gladed I started this topic... I have some friends who not only hate NDBs, but don't know how to use them either.... I will forward this to them

Right now, best I can do is just practice them on the flight simulator (I am right now actually doing it along with DME arc stuff)

my other problem is (i'm still at the beginning of my IFR training) is that I sometimes turn the wrong way to intercept a VOR.... like lets say we are on the 220 outbound, and I am told to go 350 inbound... instead of turning left, I will turn right, and end up making this big 360 I figured something out that sort of helps me, but i still get confused....

same thing withthe NDBs... if I am on the say 210 from bearing, and I need to turn 330 inbound bearing, I end up turning the wrong way (I would turn right in this case to paralell the course, and figure out the bearing diff and go from there)

 

[SoCalAprch]

Are you guys proud of this? Unbelievable. There are plenty of companies that still are authorized to and do fly NDB approaches on a regular basis. My sim partner at Eagle--who trained at ATP--had never used an NDB in his life when he got there. It doesn't get much more embarassing than having to take the time to be taught the most basic type of instrument approach in a $20 million simulator.

Speaking for myself no absolutly not, it is embarasing. Im the most senior instructor where i work and Im going to have to ask one of the newby CFII's to teach me how to use an NDB. I guess its better than trying to ask a sim instructor at a regional to teach them to you but either way its still frustrating. I have an interview with Republic coming up and some of their gouges say you have to use an NDB at some point on their sim ride. And looking past the regionals when you move up to international Im sure they are much more prevelant.

I have tuned them in and messed around with them but never actually shot an approach, I pretty much am comfortable homing and finding the football games if that even matters. But I had to teach a CFII how to set up and shoot GPS approaches because where he trained they didn't have GPS units in their planes. Everyone has their weaknesses I guess.

 

[SoCalAprch]

my other problem is (i'm still at the beginning of my IFR training) is that I sometimes turn the wrong way to intercept a VOR.... like lets say we are on the 220 outbound, and I am told to go 350 inbound... instead of turning left, I will turn right, and end up making this big 360 I figured something out that sort of helps me, but i still get confused....

same thing withthe NDBs... if I am on the say 210 from bearing, and I need to turn 330 inbound bearing, I end up turning the wrong way (I would turn right in this case to paralell the course, and figure out the bearing diff and go from there)

Once you start to think outside the plane and visualize where you are it will be easier. Always know where you are in reference to the Navaids and it will make more sense...

 

[P&H]

By the time you get to your airline job you will never use another NDB. We don't even have NDBs in the airplanes anymore. The last time they were installed in the airplanes we only used them to listen to music and talk radio.

I wouldn't count on it anymore. The way things are going now, he could get hired next week.

BTW, we utilize NDB holds and approaches in the ATR. They get easier with an RMI, plus IPs are used to getting applicants with little to no NDB experience, so they are used to showing you the techniques.

I still think that the only good NDB is a decommissioned NDB.

 

[taseal]

I wouldn't count on it anymore. The way things are going now, he could get hired next week.

BTW, we utilize NDB holds and approaches in the ATR. They get easier with an RMI, plus IPs are used to getting applicants with little to no NDB experience, so they are used to showing you the techniques.

I still think that the only good NDB is a decommissioned NDB.

I'll hop on the ATR's RMI tonight, see how thats like (with the RMI)

(there is this great ATR for flight simulator, I pretty much do all my practicing on these planes to help me out for the real flying)

http://atr.flight1.net/

 

[Ian_J]

I use them about every day, and there are plenty of times where I've had to shoot them in actual. I truely think it's one of the easiest approaches to do, once you get the hang of it.

If your company is approved for NDB approaches, you'll have to do one for a type ride at least.

While in training I asked my instructor if you guys ever got trainees who never used an NDB before, and what you did about. The answers were "yes," and "nothing." He said his buddies better teach him real quick or he gets sent packing.

 

[cfii2007]

I find NDB approaches to be fairly easy, once you get the intercept angles down, and know when to turn onto the final approach course.

 

[taseal]

He said his buddies better teach him real quick or he gets sent packing.

interesting... well now I'm kind of glad I'm learning them, altough I doubt I will do much anything with them after my training... there isn't even a NDB approach here, so our school made up a mock up NDB approach off of a AM station lol

new planes don't have ADF now, so the new guys don't learn it... however they learn GPS apporoaches, and I don't

 

[tgrayson]

and I am told to go 350 inbound... instead of turning left, I will turn right, and end up making this big 360 I figured something out that sort of helps me, but i still get confused....

In the bottom, out the top.

To go inbound on a radial

1) Put the radial in the bottom of the OBS ring (which puts recip at top)
2) Pick a heading that is towards the needle (top part of the indicator)
3) Check the heading indicator to see if that's a right or left turn.
4) Turn towards to the heading

Practice until you don't have to think about it.

 

[Berkut]

In the bottom, out the top.

This works for me as well.

This thread makes me feel all old school. I had an NDB approach and hold on my instrument ride.

 

[averyrm]

Since you're working on DME arcs and NDBs let me see if I can get across a few tricks I use:

DME arc - Easiest way to do this (a lot of people teach turn 10 time 10 twist 10 or some such): if the number starts getting bigger, turn 10 deg towards the navaid, if it gets smaller hold heading, tada

NDB - Easiest way, provided you have an HSI - Set the HSI needle on the inbound course. If the ADF needle is pointed the same way as the HSI needle, you're on the course, regardless of heading. (This one is a lot easier to show than to talk about).

 

[taseal]

In the bottom, out the top.

To go inbound on a radial

1) Put the radial in the bottom of the OBS ring (which puts recip at top)
2) Pick a heading that is towards the needle (top part of the indicator)
3) Check the heading indicator to see if that's a right or left turn.
4) Turn towards to the heading

Practice until you don't have to think about it.

ok (I don't get confused when i'm outbound, and given another outbound radial, i get confused when I need to switch from outbound to inbound)

currently, i'm on the 270 radial inbound

ATC tells me 'intercept 120 outbound'

1. I put 120 on the button of the OBS ring (which gave me 300 on the top)
2. a heading towards the needle (60 degree intercept) would be 240
3. according to the heading indicator, that would be a left turn, and would get me nowhere near the station lol

this is what I do, that seems to be working for me...

I'm 270 inbound, and i'm told to intercept 120 inbound...

I look at the HI, and it shows me that 120 would be to the left. I look at the recip, which is 300... this is much closer to turn to, so I turn right. as i'm passing the 90 degree mark, i retune the radial from 270 to 120, and that tells me the right deflection (altough I've already turned) and also which degrees I can turn to...

VOR i seem to have figured out, NDBs however (270 to bearing, intercept 120 from bearing) seems to confuse me though

 

[taseal]

Since you're working on DME arcs and NDBs let me see if I can get across a few tricks I use:

DME arc - Easiest way to do this (a lot of people teach turn 10 time 10 twist 10 or some such): if the number starts getting bigger, turn 10 deg towards the navaid, if it gets smaller hold heading, tada

NDB - Easiest way, provided you have an HSI - Set the HSI needle on the inbound course. If the ADF needle is pointed the same way as the HSI needle, you're on the course, regardless of heading. (This one is a lot easier to show than to talk about).

I hear ya on the arc, i was tought the 10/10 way, however just Sing works for me too... however my school doesn't like that... I'm probably going to end up doing that, and having to argue withthe instructor about it (isn't the point of a DME arc to keep a certain Distance? )

 

[fish314]

The memory aid that I teach guys when they are intercepting a RADIAL inbound is "Inbound, flip it around". It's really a question of the terminology, since RADIALS are outbound by definition (or in otherwords, the 330 radial points OUTBOUND from the station in the 330 direction).

There is also the possibility of something called an "invalid" intercept if you are talking about intercepting a radial inbound. You shouldn't see this on an approach, but if you are just flying around with an instructor and he gives you a random radial to fly inbound to the station depending on your position from the station that may be impossible.

If that sentence was confusing, imagine it this way. You are on the 180 radial from XYZ vortac. You CAN'T intercept the 360 radial inbound to the station from there. To do so you'd first have to fly over the vortac and then intercept the radial back to the vortac again. That intercept is invalid. (The correct instruction would have been to tell you to intercept the 180 radial inbound).

 

[tgrayson]

currently, i'm on the 270 radial inbound, ATC tells me 'intercept 120 outbound'

1. I put 120 on the button of the OBS ring (which gave me 300 on the top)
2. a heading towards the needle (60 degree intercept) would be 240
3. according to the heading indicator, that would be a left turn, and would get me nowhere near the station lol

No, the "in the bottom, out the top" rule says if you want to go outbound on a radial, put the desired radial at the top.

So you would put 120 at the top and then turn to a heading toward the needle.

I'm 270 inbound, and i'm told to intercept 120 inbound...

I look at the HI, and it shows me that 120 would be to the left. I look at the recip, which is 300... this is much closer to turn to, so I turn right. as i'm passing the 90 degree mark, i retune the radial from 270 to 120, and that tells me the right deflection (altough I've already turned) and also which degrees I can turn to...

If you're on the 270 inbound, you really can't intercept the 120 inbound.

Your procedure sounds unreliable to me. You really shouldn't be thinking of needle deflections as "right" or "left", but rather what heading is needed to intercept.

The rules:


To go inbound on a radial

1) Put the radial in the bottom of the OBS ring (which puts recip at top)
2) Pick a heading that is towards the needle (top part of the indicator)
3) Check the heading indicator to see if that's a right or left turn.
4) Turn towards to the heading


To go outbound on a radial

1) Put the radial in the top of the OBS ring
2) Pick a heading that is towards the needle (top part of the indicator)
3) Check the heading indicator to see if that's a right or left turn.
4) Turn towards to the heading

Your position relative to the VOR is irrelevant. The above *always* works.

 

[jtrain609]

do you guys even use NDB apporoaches anymore?

We are doing NDB stuff for my instrument, and I can't seem to get a hang of it... I just hate them lol

so yeah, do you guys even us NDBs?

Erm...yeah we still use bearing pointers in airliners, you can use them to point to VOR's, NDB's or FMS fixes. Figure out how to use them, they make your life a lot easier and you can't really shoot a DME arc without one in an airliner.

Yes, the skills you're using now ARE used later in your career.

EDIT: I should clarify this one. A bearing pointer acts the same as an RMI, it'll just point to multiple kind of fixes. An RMI is like an ADF that's on top of a DG. Seriously learn how this stuff works, because once you do your life will SERIOUSLY get easier when do get to an airliner cockpit. I've always got one bearing pointer going towards my next FMS fix, and if I'm using a LOM on an approach I'll have that up there also. On a DME arc I'll have one pointer going to the next FMS fix, and the other one on the VOR so I can keep track of where I'm at using both FMS and raw data. Knowledge of how a bearing pointer (which you learn from learning how to use an NDB) is priceless in your aviation education, and you should be happy you have the opportunity to learn this stuff. Many guys don't and it'll bite them in the long run.

 

[Blip16]

Erm...yeah we still use bearing pointers in airliners, you can use them to point to VOR's, NDB's or FMS fixes. Figure out how to use them, they make your life a lot easier and you can't really shoot a DME arc without one in an airliner.

Yes, the skills you're using now ARE used later in your career.

i wish i could convince students of this

 

[taseal]

I have a few friends that I can't seem to convince either...

anyways, I did the KFPR (ft. pierce, FL) NDB app on FS, I think it came out pretty nice

and I ended up doing KBCT (Boca Raton, FL) VOR-A with a missed for ####s and giggles lol

let me add at the end that I have never done an approach before, these were my 1st... just from using common sense, and what I learned from the IFR ground school, and a buddy answering a few questions for me.... NDB app was all me though

 

[taseal]

No, the "in the bottom, out the top" rule says if you want to go outbound on a radial, put the desired radial at the top.

So you would put 120 at the top and then turn to a heading toward the needle.


If you're on the 270 inbound, you really can't intercept the 120 inbound.

Your procedure sounds unreliable to me. You really shouldn't be thinking of needle deflections as "right" or "left", but rather what heading is needed to intercept.

The rules:


To go inbound on a radial

1) Put the radial in the bottom of the OBS ring (which puts recip at top)
2) Pick a heading that is towards the needle (top part of the indicator)
3) Check the heading indicator to see if that's a right or left turn.
4) Turn towards to the heading


To go outbound on a radial

1) Put the radial in the top of the OBS ring
2) Pick a heading that is towards the needle (top part of the indicator)
3) Check the heading indicator to see if that's a right or left turn.
4) Turn towards to the heading

Your position relative to the VOR is irrelevant. The above *always* works.

oops, I didn't mean 270 inb to 120 inb

lets say this

i'm on 335 outbound, and I need to intercept 300 inbound....

right now I have 335 on the HI and the OBS... We need to go inbound, so I put 300 on the bottom of the OBS, and its telling me to turn anywhere from 130 to 210... lets say we pick 180 for a 60 degree intercept...

I turn towards 180.

correct?

edit: yep that seemed to have worked

 

[TheAlchemist]

For VOR's there's a rule I learned from AOPA that is pretty dumb proof to avoid reverse sensing:

Always match your obs with your HI.