skybus

I don't know. Here's how I see it....

If you refuse to take a pilot from an airline that has a reciprocal agreement with your airline. You could very well have some explaining to do to your jumpseat committee chairman.

Reciprocal jumpseats are a two way street. It I deny a Jetblue guy cause I'm using the jumpseat as a way to push my personal agenda, I can expect that to put my companies reciprocal agreement in jeopardy. I think that's a pretty selfish thing to do, as other pilots from my company commute on Jetblue.

Sure, the Capt has the ultimate authority over the jumpseat. But if that's all there is to it, then why have jumpseat committees and reciprocal agreements? Why not just drop all the agreements and leave it all to the Capt? That works for me. Velo can bump his pronto-scabs and I can bump Chris Ford and anybody else I don't like from the internet.

That's not the way the system is set up, though. As long as we have a system with agreements between airlines. Using the jumpseat to push one guys personal agenda doesn't seem right to me.

I can only speak for my airline. But I'm certain there is no jumpseat vendetta against non-union pilots going on where I work.
 
DE727UPS said:
I don't know. Here's how I see it....

If you refuse to take a pilot from an airline that has a reciprocal agreement with your airline. You could very well have some explaining to do to your jumpseat committee chairman.
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Your right, you don't know. Of course, since you're not an ALPA member, I wouldn't expect you to have an intimate knowledge of Section 115 of the the ALPA Admin manual. In short:

Reciprocal agreements are between airline managers. They are not controlled or administered by ALPA. Therefore, the jumpseat committee chairman doesn't weild any power over individual Captains. All he can do is "suggest" solutions to problems and conflicts.

Reciprocal jumpseats are a two way street. It I deny a Jetblue guy cause I'm using the jumpseat as a way to push my personal agenda, I can expect that to put my companies reciprocal agreement in jeopardy. I think that's a pretty selfish thing to do, as other pilots from my company commute on Jetblue.
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Why? I don't use jetBlue. No union pilot should use jetBlue, Skybus or Virgin. And, again, the reciprocal agreements are between the Companies, not the individual pilot groups. Jumpseating is a privilege, one earned by making contractual sacrifices to attain it. Ask an older Delta pilot. Those guys couldn't even ride DELTA jumpseats, much less offer them to offline guys. But because Delta pilots were ALPA brothers, we gave them all the jumpseats they needed to get where they were going.

Why on earth would you extend the PRIVILEGE of jumpseating to someone who is undercutting your contract at worst and your bargaining position at best? How did those guys get to work before jetBlue/Virgin/Skybus? Those are not the only carriers out there. So suck it up, grow some 'nads and stand up for your UNION brothers instead of taking the easy road to work...begging a favor from some protoscab scum.

Sure, the Capt has the ultimate authority over the jumpseat. But if that's all there is to it, then why have jumpseat committees and reciprocal agreements?
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Here's where your ignorance of Section 115 shines like the sun. There are plenty of outs for individual Captains to deny jumpseats. A few:

1. Both pilots must be entirely comfortable with the jumpseater. That way F/Os can weigh in and object. Believe me, if my F/O said he didn't want Skywest pilots on the jumpseat, no Skywest pilot would ride. And he doesn't even need to give a reason except that he is uncomfortable with them.

2. Section 115 specifically state a Union card can be used as a secondary form of ID. So, now I ask jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus guys to show me their ACTIVE MEMBER Union card. No card, no go.

3. Section 115 also SPECIFICALLY states the decision to give or deny jumpseat rides rests entirely with the Captain.

Strike three, all you protoscabs are out.

I can only speak for my airline. But I'm certain there is no jumpseat vendetta against non-union pilots going on where I work.
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So why don't you only speak for your airline? Of course there's no vendetta at UPS or any other cargo hauler. Your pay and benefits aren't under attack by a bunch of "me first" protoscabs. You don't have the faintest idea what its like to see your F/Os take a 30% pay cut, lose their houses, cars and even wives.

So, until some outfit comes along and rapes you, perhaps you should keep your "opinons" about passenger airline problems to yourself.
 
DE727UPS said:
I don't know. Here's how I see it....

If you refuse to take a pilot from an airline that has a reciprocal agreement with your airline. You could very well have some explaining to do to your jumpseat committee chairman.
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I dealt with similar jumpseat issues while I was a union rep. The conversation goes like this:

Rep: I got a complaint from airline XYZ's jumpseat coordinator that you denied a jumpseat to one of their pilots. What happened?

Captain: He was a frickin' SCAB.

Rep: OK. 'Nuff said.


We have jumpseat committees to work out various issues, including the signing of reciprocal agreements, but jumpseat committees have no power to tell you how to handle your jumpseat. At PCL, we had a Captain that refused a jumpseat to a NWA pilot on Christmas Eve who was trying to get home on the last flight to be with his family for Christmas. Needless to say, the NWA pilot and his union reps weren't too pleased. The PCL Captain that refused the JS was well-known for denying jumpseats to NWA pilots simply because he doesn't like them. We talked to him several times in an attempt to get him to stop, but he refused to alter his behavior. In the end, all we could do was request a change. We couldn't (and wouldn't want to) force him to accept jumpseaters that he didn't want to accept. It was his decision, and to the best of my knowledge, he still refuses NWA pilots to this day. The decision is always up to the Captain.
 
While I'm not big on using the jumpseat as a political tool, my airline doesn't have a reciprocal agreement with Skybus, so no ride on Southernjets.
 
PCL_128 said:
At PCL, we had a Captain that refused a jumpseat to a NWA pilot on Christmas Eve who was trying to get home on the last flight to be with his family for Christmas. Needless to say, the NWA pilot and his union reps weren't too pleased. The PCL Captain that refused the JS was well-known for denying jumpseats to NWA pilots simply because he doesn't like them.
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That's fantastic.
 
Doug Taylor said:
While I'm not big on using the jumpseat as a political tool, my airline doesn't have a reciprocal agreement with Skybus, so no ride on Southernjets.
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My company doesn't have a reciprocal with Delta. Was trying to get home to CT one weekend and low and behold, Delta had a direct flight from CMH to BDL. I was hoping CASS would save me. Nope. The gate agent, though nice and helpful, wouldn't budge when he couldn't look up my code.

I tried later on USAIR, and the same problem happened. But, they gave me the option of asking the pilots if I could ride, and they were cool with it.

Do you think I could have done that on the Delta flight?

(New to jumpseating - just curious.)
 
Probably could! Give it a shot if the agent's game.

I'll PM you the email address of the jumpseat committee chair to see if he can get you on that list. Generally all it takes is an email or a telephone call.
 
bike21 said:
A couple of observations for thought...(not flame)

2) A lot of startups in the business world barely pay their employees for the first 6-12 months. They offer incentives such as stock options and bonuses if the company ends up successful. There are obviously no guarantees in business so companies have to start out meager. What if the likes of JBlue, Virgin and SkyBus unionize later on, become successful and pay solid rates because said companies offer a superior (relative) service?
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I think bike21 brought up a good point here that has not been addressed and that I have been thinking about as well but have held back on posting. This is not to flame, but to look at it from a different unbiased perspective.

It seems like the pilots who are taking their chances with Skybus are being prosecuted too early. The argument against them is the pay rate is too low and they don't have a union. The way people are attacking these pilots tells me that nobody wants to see any new airlines enter the market. I think it is very unreasonable to think that a new airline will start up with competitive salaries and a union before they even make their first flight. Who would provide enough capital to pay those salaries when the history of the airlines show that they are not very good investments? How can a union be voted in without any pilots? Doesn't it take time for the union process to go through its motions? As I understand it Skybus is still operating with investor money and is offering low salaries until they begin making their own money. This is just good business strategy for a new company, airline or not.

The industry is completely different than when the current majors began and what applied to them will not apply to a new airline. Any new airline that starts up will be a LCC model. The success of Southwest and the struggles of the majors will influence that as will keeping start up costs reasonable. Skybus is using a different model for the U.S. where it sounds like the customer only pays for the services they use, but all of those services will have a charge. It is different but that is what a business will need to do to have any chance of success - offer a product that is different and appeal to a new customer segment.

These pilots have a chance to be respected or the black sheep of the industry. I don't think they are under any sort of training contract and that should help them. If Skybus offers a payscale that is below the current standard and the pilots accept it without a fight or quitting, or they reject unionizing then these attacks will be warranted. If they are able to get payrates that are industry standard (I doubt they would set a new high bar) and vote in a union then what would make them different from the other pilots other than they took a chance at a new company? This is a risky move for all of them. A new company will have growing pains and many internal issues to sort out.

I'm willing to give these pilots some time to demonstrate what type of people they really are. If Skybus goes out of business, I would like to see it happen because they offered too low of a long-term payscale and all of the pilots decided to leave as a result. They have the chance to make a difference in the industry right now, good or bad.

Just my thoughts.
 
Story time: I flew with a CA a couple of weeks ago I'm actually ashamed to say is at PCL. We were flying MEM-SDF, and along the way he was telling me how he doesn't like to give UPS guys a ride b/c we don't get a shipping discount on them. Well, I said "So? We have a recip JS agreement and can ride the JS with them. We don't give them a discount on tickets, why should they give us a shipping discount? It's a fair trade, IMO." That didn't sit well with him. Well, shocker, there was a UPS JSer in SDF waiting for a ride to back to MEM. We roll into the gate with plenty of O2. I go to Starbucks, come back and suddenly we don't have enough O2 for a JSer. WTF? I'm pretty sure this guy drained the O2 so he'd have an excuse not to take the guy. And when I say "pretty sure," I mean "damn certain unless there was a hole in an O2 tank somewhere." The trip only went downhill from there.....

Let's just say, if I find I'm paired with him again, a sick call might be in order. Don, if you want the guys name, I'd be more than happy to send it to you in a PM just in case he tries to JS on you guys.
 
kellwolf said:
Story time: I flew with a CA a couple of weeks ago I'm actually ashamed to say is at PCL. We were flying MEM-SDF, and along the way he was telling me how he doesn't like to give UPS guys a ride b/c we don't get a shipping discount on them. Well, I said "So? We have a recip JS agreement and can ride the JS with them. We don't give them a discount on tickets, why should they give us a shipping discount? It's a fair trade, IMO." That didn't sit well with him. Well, shocker, there was a UPS JSer in SDF waiting for a ride to back to MEM. We roll into the gate with plenty of O2. I go to Starbucks, come back and suddenly we don't have enough O2 for a JSer. WTF? I'm pretty sure this guy drained the O2 so he'd have an excuse not to take the guy. And when I say "pretty sure," I mean "damn certain unless there was a hole in an O2 tank somewhere." The trip only went downhill from there.....

Let's just say, if I find I'm paired with him again, a sick call might be in order. Don, if you want the guys name, I'd be more than happy to send it to you in a PM just in case he tries to JS on you guys.
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Wouldn't it be easier, if you have it to just be able to perm non bid trips he is on?
 
Yeah, I could do that, but I'd be sacrificing other things like days off in order to avoid flying with him. The odds are slim I'd pull him again before I upgrade, so I'll just roll the dice. CAs switch trips so often, there's no way to tell. I only got paired up with him a few hours before the trip started anyway. He's one of those guys people talk about, so when I checked in and saw his name my first thought was "Ouch. Well, I've gotten along with some of the other CAs people can't stand. Maybe I can get along with this guy." Nope. He's a •.
 
kellwolf said:
Story time: I flew with a CA a couple of weeks ago I'm actually ashamed to say is at PCL. We were flying MEM-SDF, and along the way he was telling me how he doesn't like to give UPS guys a ride b/c we don't get a shipping discount on them. Well, I said "So? We have a recip JS agreement and can ride the JS with them. We don't give them a discount on tickets, why should they give us a shipping discount? It's a fair trade, IMO." That didn't sit well with him. Well, shocker, there was a UPS JSer in SDF waiting for a ride to back to MEM. We roll into the gate with plenty of O2. I go to Starbucks, come back and suddenly we don't have enough O2 for a JSer. WTF? I'm pretty sure this guy drained the O2 so he'd have an excuse not to take the guy. And when I say "pretty sure," I mean "damn certain unless there was a hole in an O2 tank somewhere." The trip only went downhill from there.....
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What a scumbag. If you're going to deny someone a jumpseat, at least have the balls to tell them the real reason to their face. Trying to cop out by saying that you don't have enough O2 is cowardly.

Don, if you want the guys name, I'd be more than happy to send it to you in a PM just in case he tries to JS on you guys.
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Send the info to Ed D. on the jumpseat committee. He'll see if he can talk some sense into the dimwit.
 
Here's a FACT to plug into your "thoughts". UAL and USAir's narrowbody pay rates that were imposed by the bankruptcy court are EXACTLY the same as jetBlue's narrowbody rates. When managers saw that jetBlue could get pilots to work for 30-40% LESS and generate profits, is it any wonder that they asked the judge for those rates.

Now Skybus enters the arena with rates 50% BELOW jetBlue. If they can get dumbaholas to fly for them, then ALL our narrowbody pay rates are in jeopardy. They are making an impact...a HORRIBLE one. If they succeed, they need to be persecuted to the full extent possible. Shunning and denial of jumpseats will only be the scratch on the surface. They'd better keep one hand on their bags, or they may very well end up in Narita.
 
I'd like to see Velo and PCL address the post with regard to a startup not being able to have a union because a lack of a pilot group until a few years when one can be voted in.
Also I honestly don't know the history of these pay scales but United and Alaska have some of the worst starting FO pay for similar aircraft. They are less then places like jetBlue and Spirit. If I was in a position to get on with one of the above airlines I would think jetBlue would be the best choice with the possibility of them organizing in the next few years.
Also why do the pitch forks go away for airlines like Allegiant? They have pretty low captain and F/O pay rates and are non-union?
Another question. In one sentence you say that the jumpseat is a union negotiated benefit, yet in the next sentence y'all are saying that management is setting the jumpseat agreements?

You guys have obviously been in this industry longer then I have. I'd like to gain some insight into your viewpoints. I think your hatred for these pilots gets a little intense. You read between the lines alot and focus on the pilots when alot of other people screwed you over that are more directly connected with you. These guys are not crossing picket lines. They are giving a startup airline a shot and seeing what comes of it. Alot of them are doing it to be close to home and I know for a fact that they are trying to organize as soon as possible. Kinda hard to jack up the house when everyone is kicking dirt in your face.
 
mikecweb said:
I'd like to see Velo and PCL address the post with regard to a startup not being able to have a union because a lack of a pilot group until a few years when one can be voted in.
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If pilots would simply refuse to work for a start-up that didn't offer industry-standard pay and work rules from the beginning, then this wouldn't be a problem. If a new company can't afford to pay market rates from the beginning, then that company shouldn't be in business. The beginning of a company shouldn't be subsidized on the backs of the employees. Want to start a new airline? Better get enough start-up capital to pay people fairly from the get-go.

Also I honestly don't know the history of these pay scales but United and Alaska have some of the worst starting FO pay for similar aircraft.
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The key word there is "starting" pay. The legacy carriers have always had low pay on year one because you are a probationary pilot during the first year. Using negotiating capital to negotiate for probationary pay rates isn't very smart. The pay rates make a huge jump in second year in most cases. And of course, the rates that you see on years 2 and above on the legacy scales are about 35-50% less than they were just a few years ago.

Another question. In one sentence you say that the jumpseat is a union negotiated benefit, yet in the next sentence y'all are saying that management is setting the jumpseat agreements?
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At most airlines, the company signs the reciprocal agreements (there are some exceptions to this), but the union has negotiated the authority of the Captain over the jumpseat into the CBA.

I think your hatred for these pilots gets a little intense. You read between the lines alot and focus on the pilots when alot of other people screwed you over that are more directly connected with you.
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What one pilot group does directly affects every other pilot group. I can tell you from experience, when you sit down across from the company during negotiations, the first thing they do is throw down the payrates from the lowest paid carrier and say that "these guys will do it for this much, so why should I pay you more?" Always remember, every pilot in the industry is connected to every other pilot in the industry. You and your pilot group do not exist in a vacuum. We're all in this together.
 
PCL_128 said:
If pilots would simply refuse to work for a start-up that didn't offer industry-standard pay and work rules from the beginning, then this wouldn't be a problem. If a new company can't afford to pay market rates from the beginning, then that company shouldn't be in business. The beginning of a company shouldn't be subsidized on the backs of the employees. Want to start a new airline? Better get enough start-up capital to pay people fairly from the get-go.

What one pilot group does directly affects every other pilot group. I can tell you from experience, when you sit down across from the company during negotiations, the first thing they do is throw down the payrates from the lowest paid carrier and say that "these guys will do it for this much, so why should I pay you more?" Always remember, every pilot in the industry is connected to every other pilot in the industry. You and your pilot group do not exist in a vacuum. We're all in this together.
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You seem like a nice guy BUT
You do know you are pay less then Jetblue pilots up to year 8. The low wages at the Legacy airlines has more to do with the low pay at your airline then Jetblue. You talk about people not going to work for airlines that didn't offer industry-standard pay, but you have always work for the carrier with the lowest pay. So when are you going to jack the house.
 
Gonzo said:
You do know you are pay less then Jetblue pilots up to year 8.
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True. But we are operating under a 7 year old contract that's been in negotiations for 3 years. The TA that we just turned down would have paid us far more than JetBlue pilots, and would have matched industry standard with the legacies. We turned it down because we felt that it wasn't enough. That's the big difference here: we have the power to turn it down and fight for more until we get the contract that we deserve. The JetBlue pilots simply have to take whatever management throws at them. They have no power to improve the profession.

The low wages at the Legacy airlines has more to do with the low pay at your airline then Jetblue.
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The low pay at every airline contributes to the problem. The difference is the legacy pilots are unionized and have a process in place to improve the profession. The JetBlue pilots do not. They aren't doing their fair share to improve the profession.

You talk about people not going to work for airlines that didn't offer industry-standard pay,
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No, I talk about not going to non-union carriers that don't offer industry-standard pay. At a union carrier, the pay may be below standard now, but you are able to fight for more to improve the profession. That's what Velo and I keep stressing here.

but you have always work for the carrier with the lowest pay. So when are you going to jack the house.
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I was a union rep for 5 years doing my part to jack up the house. And for the record, PCL was not close to the lowest paid. When I went to work for PCL, the pay was industry standard for a CRJ operator. And AirTran isn't even close to the lowest paid, even with our 7 year-old contract. Our 717 Captains make more than widebody Captains at many legacies.
 
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