Log ME dual-received as PIC?

aloft

aloft

New Member
Had my first lesson in the Seneca this afternoon, my instructor was inclined to log the time as both dual-received and PIC. Not wanting to have to explain such a thing in an interview down the road, I asked him to let me research it a bit. My own opinion is that it cannot be logged as PIC time since: a) I cannot act as PIC, and b) nor do I meet the "sole manipulator" caveat as I lack the appropriate category/class rating.

What say ye? What do others do?
 
Not PIC since you're not rated category/class. Otherwise, all the time spent training for your PPL could be PIC as well.
 
Kell got it. Your instructor may be getting confused with allowing PPL-ME pilots log PIC while working towards the Commercial.
 
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:Yea, I must agree with the rest of the crowd, must be rated in the Category and class, type (if required) in order to log as PIC, but once you get that MEL anytime you go with the instructor you can log PIC!
 
Yep. I just went through this whole thing a couple of weeks ago....and in a Seneca I. The first 8 hours in the Seneca was prepping for the ME-PPL. I took the checkride and have been logging dual received as PIC ever since. Now up to 40 hours ME time...logging as PIC. Until you get your ME-PPL, you cannot log PIC. Once you do, everything from then on out should be logged as PIC.
 
Chewie von Nubbins said:
Yep. I just went through this whole thing a couple of weeks ago....and in a Seneca I. The first 8 hours in the Seneca was prepping for the ME-PPL. I took the checkride and have been logging dual received as PIC ever since. Now up to 40 hours ME time...logging as PIC. Until you get your ME-PPL, you cannot log PIC. Once you do, everything from then on out should be logged as PIC.
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OR the CMEL. You can get the CMEL as the initial as well without getting a ME-PPL. The grey area there comes when you need the "acting PIC" time for the rating. Basically, it's not "real" PIC time. It's just noted in the "comments" section of the logbook entry as "acting PIC time." That's the way I did it, and the AFW FSDO agreed. YMMV depending on different FSDOs/inspectors/DEs. Crappy thing is that "acting PIC" time doesn't even count towards the PIC time for the MEI.
 
kellwolf said:
OR the CMEL. You can get the CMEL as the initial as well without getting a ME-PPL. The grey area there comes when you need the "acting PIC" time for the rating. Basically, it's not "real" PIC time. It's just noted in the "comments" section of the logbook entry as "acting PIC time." That's the way I did it, and the AFW FSDO agreed. YMMV depending on different FSDOs/inspectors/DEs. Crappy thing is that "acting PIC" time doesn't even count towards the PIC time for the MEI.
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I think you mean "performing the duties of pilot in command" rather than "acting PIC."

Very, very different things from each other. One is having the rating and endorsement that entitle you to be in charge of a flight and being in charge of a flight. The other is "pretend solo" to get around insurance prohibitions on "student" solos in multi-engine aircraft.

With the proper terminology, it's not that gray.
 
Actually, I've seen it as "simulated PIC" as well. Talking to a different FSDO where I was training before, since it's "pretend solo," they wanted it logged in the solo column! You're right, it's not that grey. The government just makes it grey.
 
kellwolf said:
Actually, I've seen it as "simulated PIC" as well. Talking to a different FSDO where I was training before, since it's "pretend solo," they wanted it logged in the solo column! You're right, it's not that grey. The government just makes it grey.
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:yeahthat:

They use the SPIC method exclusively over here, as during the CMEL training you are not yet rated as PPL-ME (If you follow the syllabus).

The requirement for ME solo is satisfied by the SPIC, as NO ONE will let you solo a multi while you are in training, at least that I am aware of.


Fortunately, I was already PPL-ME when I was doing my CPL-ME training, so everything was PIC.
 
Why don't you guys send some of these guys in a C-MEL 141 program syllabus, up for a PP-MEL add-on ride after they have become proficient in the PP maneuvers? It'd be a part 61 ride.

That's the way I did it, I'm in a 141 CMEL program, but after I was good to go for a PP-MEL addon, I did it. And, now over 55 hours of MEL PIC later, coming up on a CMEL check ride on Monday.
 
surreal1221 said:
Why don't you guys send some of these guys in a C-MEL 141 program syllabus, up for a PP-MEL add-on ride after they have become proficient in the PP maneuvers? It'd be a part 61 ride.

That's the way I did it, I'm in a 141 CMEL program, but after I was good to go for a PP-MEL addon, I did it. And, now over 55 hours of MEL PIC later, coming up on a CMEL check ride on Monday.
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Probably because it would take longer, and cost more, and for all intents and purposes it wouldn't make a big difference.

I am also glad that I got the PIC ME, but in the grand scheme of things what do it really mean?

It is going to work in my favor towards the MEI rating, where you need the 15 PIC, but other then that it is really not a big deal.
 
How would it cost more?

Just follow the first lessons of the CMEL syllabus, inserting a few practices of steep turns, stall recovery, vmc demo, single engine approach, and if instrument rated, a single engine instrument approach. Which, I'm sure already written into most Part 141 TCO's.

The only additional cost to me was an exam fee. That exam fee, has provided me with the ability to log 80% of my CMEL training as PIC time.

Certainly was worth the investment - personally.
 
surreal1221 said:
How would it cost more?

Just follow the first lessons of the CMEL syllabus, inserting a few practices of steep turns, stall recovery, vmc demo, single engine approach, and if instrument rated, a single engine instrument approach. Which, I'm sure already written into most Part 141 TCO's.

The only additional cost to me was an exam fee. That exam fee, has provided me with the ability to log 80% of my CMEL training as PIC time.

Certainly was worth the investment - personally.
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Stage check rides would add to cost and time.
 
surreal1221 said:
Why don't you guys send some of these guys in a C-MEL 141 program syllabus, up for a PP-MEL add-on ride after they have become proficient in the PP maneuvers? It'd be a part 61 ride.

That's the way I did it, I'm in a 141 CMEL program, but after I was good to go for a PP-MEL addon, I did it. And, now over 55 hours of MEL PIC later, coming up on a CMEL check ride on Monday.
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Are you going to the airlines after your CMEL, or are you going all the way with your ratings? Sorry for not knowing your story, but that's great work with the hours so far.
 
No, I plan on instructing for some time period. CFI (ASEL) initial, then plan to get the MEI shortly afterwards - maybe a month.

X-Forces said:
Stage check rides would add to cost and time.
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Okay. . .I still don't see how a required stage check flight, would add costs considering it is already part of the syllabus, and something that has to be done anyway. All it takes a simple phone call to an examiner. It'd be done part 61, so it wouldn't required a stage check (just time in the aircraft to be proficient in the PP Maneuvers). Just an instructors endorsement, an 8710, an appointment with an examiner, and a certain amount of money for an examiner fee.

But hey, maybe it's too complicated.
 
kellwolf said:
Actually, I've seen it as "simulated PIC" as well. Talking to a different FSDO where I was training before, since it's "pretend solo," they wanted it logged in the solo column! You're right, it's not that grey. The government just makes it grey.
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Actually I think that it's well meaning people, both in the government and out, who create the short-hand like SPIC who help to make it gray.
 
surreal1221 said:
How would it cost more?

Just follow the first lessons of the CMEL syllabus, inserting a few practices of steep turns, stall recovery, vmc demo, single engine approach, and if instrument rated, a single engine instrument approach. Which, I'm sure already written into most Part 141 TCO's.

The only additional cost to me was an exam fee. That exam fee, has provided me with the ability to log 80% of my CMEL training as PIC time.

Certainly was worth the investment - personally.
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:yeahthat: Exactly the way that I did it. No grey area at all after you get your PMEL. The insurance thing in the way (having to have an instructor in the plane any time that I rented the twin) is not a problem...and is actually really cool...if you ask me.... I was able to do some very interesting approaches that I would have probably not tried on my on and land directly into a couple of big class B airspace airports...right behind the 757's and such.

Also, the CMEL checkride is really no different than the PMEL checkride. The only thing that I can think of is the difference in steep turns. Other than that, and doing the mock x/c with an immediate divert, not a big difference. And, if you are initially bitch slapped with engine kill after engine kill from the start, it never really gets harder. It is all gravy after that. But, I haven't taken the CMEL checkride yet.....probably at the end of this month / beginning of next month. Feel free to correct me if I have misspoken.
 
IMO, taking the PMEL right before the CMEL ride just to get some ME PIC IS a waste of $$$. For one, you're shelling out the money for the checkride, and that could be anywhere from an extra $250-500 right there. Second, you can time build that stuff in a SE, which is cheaper. Oh yeah, and the instructor doesn't have to be there, making it less. If the only reason you're doing it is to get ME PIC time, it's not worth it, especially in today's hiring environment.
 
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