FL180 Cessna 172 Skyhawk

This is the one that got me going. I understand that the single engine pilot feels he has nothing to lose by doing it this way, because either way if his engine quits he's along for the ride. That's the risk you assume by flying single engine. Although I personally would like to have enough room to stop if my engine quit prior to Vr!

Well said.

You asked what changed by making the aircraft multi-engine. The whole point of multi-engine is to use the increased performance of the two engines to set yourself up so that you don't get into this predicament. The whole reason to have another engine is so that you will survive this scenario, and the only way to do that is to give yourself adequate accelerate-stop distance on the runway. If all your doing by flying the twin is ignoring the safety margin it can give you, then don't bother flying it! Get a big, high-performance single and stick with that!

I see exactly where you're coming from and I agree, to a large extent. If I always got to pick what type of plane I had under a given set of conditions, your advice completely makes sense.

The problem I have with your logic is that you're basically giving the single-engine pilot a free pass to do whatever he wants, because if his engine quits, he's along for the ride. You're not saying, "This is dangerous, this pilot should not do this," when it comes to departing short strips in a single. However, put a twin in the exact same scenario and all of a sudden you're saying the pilot would be using bad judgement to make the takeoff. To me, that doesn't seem logical. The pilot would be safer if he got out of his twin, walked across the ramp, hopped in a single, and blasted off? I don't think so.


Maybe try looking at it from this theoretical scenario: You're hired to be a forest service pilot and are asked to fly a load of equipment in to and out of a mountain strip. You can have your pick between using a Cessna 182 or a Piper Aztec. You're current and proficient in both models. Theoretically speaking, you look at the performance charts and find each plane has identical takeoff ground rolls and climb rates for the conditions (I know the Aztec would normally perform better, but let's say if you choose to take the Aztec your boss will throw in more equipment and increase your gross weight). However, neither plane will be able to accelerate and stop using the given runway. Which plane do you take? Or do you just refuse to make the trip on the grounds that it's inherently an unsafe operation?

I'd take the Aztec in a heartbeat.


But really, I think we're getting too caught up in this single/multi issue. My original point that I keep trying to make is that risk management is a very dynamic skill. "Safe" is a very relative term from pilot to pilot. Obviously there are things that are very safe, things that are very unsafe, and I believe there is a huge grey area in the middle. That's all I'm trying to say.

My point is that along with the increased performance of a twin comes an implied obligation to utilize it correctly. You would only be safer in a twin if you allow the aircraft's performance to keep you alive when you lose an engine! That's why I say this has nothing to do with Part 91 vs. Part 121.

Ok, I see where you're coming from, and I'm not saying you're wrong. The only reason 91/121 got drug in to this conversation was because there are some things (accelerate-stop, for example) that are absolutely, positively, legally, limiting factors to a flight under 121, while in part 91 the rules are much more open to utilizing pilot judgement. I believe there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to flying, and most cats can be skinned *reasonably* safely as long as the cat skinner knows what he's doing. Using the issue of accelerate-stop performance as my example was probably a lousy idea.

How about we agree to disagree on certain specific points and both have a nice day?
 
Not to be a jerk or anything.. but I've been following a few of your posts and some of the things I have read just come off as reckless. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me, but after reading you as a student pilot flying into in-advertant IMC, busting restricted areas, and flying in such marginal conditions with such low experience is worrying. I'm not too sure if flight into class A with no instrument rating, not on an IFR flight plan, and in a plane "with the stall horn blaring" shows good judgment, either.
Agreed..
 
Geeze, aren't you guys done yet? Just because the TV beats things to death doesn't mean everyone should. Meh, civil discourse/ideological brawl....They're kinda similar right?

This board has tons of great info and cranial rectal inversions.
 
Oh you're so cute, all we need now is for Chris Ford to come in here and call someone fat/stupid and this thread hits for the cycle.

The Chris Ford reference I'm not familiar.

I've teenagers overly absorbed in rap music, so, because of my maturity in dealing with them, the term "fat" carries no negative connotation to me. Looking at Beyonce' and Jennifer Lopez, when the word "fat" is mentioned, I usually use it as an adjective to describe a most pleasing part of their anatomy, so I'm like :drool:. (There's another smiley I'd like to use with the :P, but it doesn't work here. ;) )

Stupid? I use that word as an adjective as well usually to describe a "comment" or "remark" etc., etc. Darwin award candidate is usually how I describe individuals intellectually/academically challenged.

As for our pilot who initiated the thread? We're actually arguing through PM. :) He believes he droves down the German autobahns faster than I did. (I think he's probably right.) I think he's a Pilsner guy, and I'm a Hefe Weizen kinda person.

Both of us LOVE being pilots, and we love aviation.
 
Both of us LOVE being pilots, and we love aviation.
Now, something worth quoting! He did a bad thing, he PM'd me and admitted that. I see no point in the constant "I'm smarter/safer/better than you because of X, Y, or Z." Thats what Presidential politics is for, it doesn't belong in the hangar.


Unless of course we're talking about me cause I'm the best pilot EVAR!
 
Hefe all the way! Unless it was "new" wine time. But I can never remember the name of the stuff they sold along the road when the new wine wasn't filtered yet. (yeah - alcohol sales along the road - ah Europe.) They couldn't cap it b/c the cork would blow off since it was still fermenting. Anybody? Good stuff.

Thank god you didn't say I like Bitburger, though. That would have started a real war! ech!


Got my 5 ton up to 80mph downhill one time on the way to Hohenfels. That must be where it all started.:D
 
Hefe all the way! Unless it was "new" wine time. But I can never remember the name of the stuff they sold along the road when the new wine wasn't filtered yet. (yeah - alcohol sales along the road - ah Europe.) They couldn't cap it b/c the cork would blow off since it was still fermenting. Anybody? Good stuff.

Thank god you didn't say I like Bitburger, though. That would have started a real war! ech!


Got my 5 ton up to 80mph downhill one time on the way to Hohenfels. That must be where it all started.:D

See what you've done! I need to start surfing the web to identify that type of wine. Oh yes. . .I remember! Six years of Germany, and if you come into my house at anytime, there will always REPEAT, always be a bottle of Spatlese or Auslese in my refrig!

Hohenfels! That sent chills down my spine. Especially when I was permanently assigned to Grafenwohr for three years. Oh my. . .
 
I'm not kissing Kevin's butt because we're flying together tomorrow to Moscow, but even as a civilian, when a former Navy carrier-based pilot starts talking about safety, I'm generally all ears.

Personal opinion only.
 
I've learned more from this than any of you could ever imagine...:rolleyes:

I'm not kissing Kevin's butt because we're flying together tomorrow to Moscow, but even as a civilian, when a former Navy carrier-based pilot starts talking about safety, I'm generally all ears.

Personal opinion only.
 
I'm not kissing Kevin's butt because we're flying together tomorrow to Moscow, but even as a civilian, when a former Navy carrier-based pilot starts talking about safety, I'm generally all ears.

Personal opinion only.


. . .and the wife is peeved, Doug. The Moscow trip got slipped to October. She's not one who enjoys the cold. She went to Arizona State for school and came to Houston for work, because she hates it when the temp drops below 70. :( Going to Moscow in October is still like going to Siberia for her.
 
Now, something worth quoting! He did a bad thing, he PM'd me and admitted that. I see no point in the constant "I'm smarter/safer/better than you because of X, Y, or Z." Thats what Presidential politics is for, it doesn't belong in the hangar.


Unless of course we're talking about me cause I'm the best pilot EVAR!

If you have one more hour of flight time than me, I'll not argue with you. I'm always trying to accumulate hours vice ending my flight time with those infamous words. . .watch this! :D
 
I'm not criticizing your advice, experience level, nor expertise. I'm well aware of the fact that even after pouring my heart and soul into aviation for the last four years I'm still very much a newbie. The only thing I'm saying, and you'll have to forgive the irony here, is that once you've established that you're not happy with something you shouldn't dwell on it. I can think of at least half a dozen threads on this board where someone has been jumped on for doing something stupid. It shouldn't take 9 pages of posts to get that point across, I'm willing to bet he's gotten it by now.


And if not he'll end up a smoking hole opening up another job opportunity for me.
 
. . .and the wife is peeved, Doug. The Moscow trip got slipped to October. She's not one who enjoys the cold. She went to Arizona State for school and came to Houston for work, because she hates it when the temp drops below 70. :( Going to Moscow in October is still like going to Siberia for her.

Aww! I was going to drag her in the cockpit and take her picture for you!

Well, maybe sometime in the future.
 
I'm not kissing Kevin's butt because we're flying together tomorrow to Moscow, but even as a civilian, when a former Navy carrier-based pilot starts talking about safety, I'm generally all ears.

Personal opinion only.

Not because I'm in the Navy but...I second that :yeahthat:
military really rubs safety into our heads day in and day out.
 
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