Colgan ALPA ?

wheelsup said:
The end result would be the same. Pinnacle has to get Colgan pilots on its seniority list regardless if Colgan is unionized or not.
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That's the problem right there. IF the 9E MEC doesn't win this scope grievance (and stranger things have happened in arbitration recently) then there is absolutely nothing to stop all of the RJs from getting transfered to the lower (and management imposed) cost structure at Colgan. In actuality if Colgan doesn't get a staple job, things are going to be pretty go over there for Colgan pilots. However, for the 9E guys (and the rest of the aviation industry) it would be pretty bad. Wheels, remember, you work for a company that isn't out to get their employees. It may not be all rainbows and butterflies, but they aren't actively trying to screw you over. Most of the rest of the industry isn't like that.
 
I'm sure all those toolbags that voted no or didn't vote would be the first ones in line to fly those shiny Pinnacle RJ's when PNCL holdings starts siphoning Pinnacle's aircraft over to Colgan to be flown at Colgan's managment imposed rates!
 
151 yes votes and ONE no vote.

Less than 50% of the Colgan pilots voted in an election that was critical to their careers. Sad, very sad.

I have a lot more respect for the one pilot that voted no than the 158 guys that were too apathetic to vote.
 
OldTownPilot said:
151 yes votes and ONE no vote.

Less than 50% of the Colgan pilots voted in an election that was critical to their careers. Sad, very sad.

I have a lot more respect for the one pilot that voted no than the 158 guys that were too apathetic to vote.
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Are you ####ting me!:mad: 158 toolbags that didn't even vote! Holy ####! I just thought it was a few. Man it's not like they were voting for SAPA or something, jeez! Oh and it's not like they just f'd themselves, but actually a whole other pilot group as well, who had the ballz to vote in ALPA.
All those guys that didn't vote need a swift kick in the jimmy! Is the Kool Aide that PNCL was handing out that strong?
Maybe ALPA should compile a list of those who didn't vote, so when the whipsaw comes and the PNCL guys get screwed, they can be on a "No Jumpseat" list. I mean, at least one dude had the intestinal fortitude to vote NO!:rolleyes:
 
"There are a couple of things you should keep in mind about whether or not you even want to vote. THE CHOICE YOU HAVE IS BETWEEN ALPA AND NO UNION. First, for ALPA to win the election, a majority of all eligible voters must cast affirmative votes for representation. If a majority of eligible voters vote for representation, then the organization receiving a majority of the votes cast wins the election. Therefore,​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]any [/FONT]vote for representation could result in ALPA winning the election. For example, if ALPA receives 26% of the votes of eligible voters and another organization or union receives 25% of the votes of eligible voters, this would result in a 51% majority asking for representation. The representation will default to ALPA, even though 74% of the Pilots did not vote for ALPA. Although you have the choice to "write in" another union or select "no representation" doing so creates the risk of voting for ALPA. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Therefore, the safest way to vote "NO" is to not call[/FONT]." <--- excerpt from a ColganCares memo

Just trying to be the messenger here. Not 'stirring the pot' just don't like hearing the 'apathetic' Colgan pilots assumption. ​

 
PILOT said:
"There are a couple of things you should keep in mind about whether or not you even want to vote. THE CHOICE YOU HAVE IS BETWEEN ALPA AND NO UNION. First, for ALPA to win the election, a majority of all eligible voters must cast affirmative votes for representation. If a majority of eligible voters vote for representation, then the organization receiving a majority of the votes cast wins the election. Therefore,​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]any [/FONT]vote for representation could result in ALPA winning the election. For example, if ALPA receives 26% of the votes of eligible voters and another organization or union receives 25% of the votes of eligible voters, this would result in a 51% majority asking for representation. The representation will default to ALPA, even though 74% of the Pilots did not vote for ALPA. Although you have the choice to "write in" another union or select "no representation" doing so creates the risk of voting for ALPA. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Therefore, the safest way to vote "NO" is to not call[/FONT]." <--- excerpt from a ColganCares memo

Just trying to be the messenger here. Not 'stirring the pot' just don't like hearing the 'apathetic' Colgan pilots assumption. ​
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The Kool-Aid runeth over for all to drink. :drool:

ColganCares my a$$.....what a joke......I'm curious to see how often Mike Colgan is in contact with the pilot group now that the vote is over.......I'm sure he's gonna try to make it 'simply the best.' :sarcasm:
 
BobDDuck said:
That's the problem right there. IF the 9E MEC doesn't win this scope grievance (and stranger things have happened in arbitration recently) then there is absolutely nothing to stop all of the RJs from getting transfered to the lower (and management imposed) cost structure at Colgan.
Click to expand...

But I don't see how Colgan being ALPA would help. Pinnacle itself is ALPA and getting imposed pay rates on their -900's. That could happen regardless if they had put ALPA in place or not is my point. The only thing that will stop the whipsaw is Pinnacles' scope language if it can be upheld. If it can't, even if Colgan was ALPA, there would be nothing preventing Pinnacle management from transferring those planes right over, AFAIK.

This sucks for the Colgan guys right now but my guess is the Pinnacle guys want you on their list much more than your group as a whole wanted ALPA. Why in the world ANYONE would not WANT ALPA on property blows me away though. 1.95% and most of the stress of the job is gone.

It may not be all rainbows and butterflies, but they aren't actively trying to screw you over. Most of the rest of the industry isn't like that.
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It's getting bad over here. "Contract Interpretations", management wanting pay cuts, heck they even asked the union for $15/hr 1st year FO pay rate (with a straight face!). Haha that went over well. Our 401(k) is bringing down the company, etc. Nevermind that the company is run inefficiently, nope, it's the pilots fault. When you look at the other operators, they have so much more invested in IT, which helps their operation immensely.
 
wheelsup said:
But I don't see how Colgan being ALPA would help. Pinnacle itself is ALPA and getting imposed pay rates on their -900's.
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That's not true. No payrate is being "imposed" on the Pinnacle pilots as it was done at Colgan. The PCL contract has a specific process laid out to determine payrates on new equipment. Within 30 days of the beginning of operations of the new equipment type, the company and union must negotiate a new payrate. If they are unable to reach agreement, then the matter goes to arbitration and both sides make their case to the arbitrator who then decides the rate. Much different than Mikey Colgan just pulling a payrate out of his ass.

If it can't, even if Colgan was ALPA, there would be nothing preventing Pinnacle management from transferring those planes right over, AFAIK.
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There would be less incentive for Phildo to transfer the airplanes if Colgan were unionized. Being able to send airplanes to a group of pilots that has absolutely zero say in their working conditions on a day-to-day basis is a huge advantage to management. Eliminating the non-union advantage to management would have drastically reduced the incentive to Phildo to transfer the planes. As it stands for at least the next 12 months, Pinnacle management has a non-union airline just waiting in the wings to use for whatever purposes they want. Bad situation.
 
I see your points, yet how long would it of taken to get those pay rates and contract established. Hell it's taken ASA 5 years to get this far into negotiations. 2 years at AWAC for the arbritation, and it's still not over with. Whatever the case, I agree with you, it is a bad situation.
 
i posted this earlier on the "other site" but i'll expand it here.



instead of bashing the 155, maybe we should figure out why they didn't vote so that this doesn't happen next year. Read the NMB rules on an election. TO vote no, a person should not vote at all OR vote for no representation.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/faqs-ola.html

Seggy and the OC spent countless hours of their well earned free time trying to make things better for all of us. It takes one hell of a person to stand up and make that sort of commitment. I said it when we first were bought out and I'll say it now:

Threats, talking down to others, dividing the group will not make this work. THis is not a alpa vs anti alpa fight. It should be us vs mgmt. Reason works a hell of a lot better than threats or bashings. THe OC had an uphill battle to start. We have something like 26 outstations??????? THere is no way they could get face time with everyone. THey did a hell of a job getting the word out. IT's up to the rest of the pilot group to encourage those on the "fence." "Teach snakes to kill other snakes." THat's the sticker that we need on our bags.

I think the apathetic people were the people who thought this would be a sure thing for alpa. THe others voted by not voting at all. It's time to find a way to change this by next year. THe OC gave it a great run and came really close. But, just like any election if you lose by a close margin you need to get out there and find out why and change those voters minds now. Scare tactics, stickers, and the like will likely harden the resolve of those against representation. Maybe pcl mgmt will give everyone a reason to vote by next year. Hopefully not, but by the resolve of the OC instead. I'm not sure how many pilot groups were able to get representation on the first try, but i'm sure it's not many. Keep your chin up, dig in the heels, and hope mgmt doesn't beat us down to bad in the next year.

Airdale, I hate to single you out man, but are you willing to quit over this? Not to bash, but you've done a lot of complaining about a company that you just started working for. It's not perfect, and all the colganites feel your pain. But saying you want to quit after people like seggy just busted his ass for a good year is just upsetting. I'll lead the way here. IF you don't like it, I challenge you to make it better by helping people like seggy in the next year. I plan on it, and hope to see you there also. My .02
 
BobDDuck said:
That's the problem right there. IF the 9E MEC doesn't win this scope grievance (and stranger things have happened in arbitration recently) then there is absolutely nothing to stop all of the RJs from getting transfered to the lower (and management imposed) cost structure at Colgan. In actuality if Colgan doesn't get a staple job, things are going to be pretty go over there for Colgan pilots. However, for the 9E guys (and the rest of the aviation industry) it would be pretty bad. Wheels, remember, you work for a company that isn't out to get their employees. It may not be all rainbows and butterflies, but they aren't actively trying to screw you over. Most of the rest of the industry isn't like that.
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We're running 3 pilot classes/month right now. Pinnacle would never in their right mind, send us airplanes.
 
SmitteyB said:
We're running 3 pilot classes/month right now. Pinnacle would never in their right mind, send us airplanes.
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Apparently you still don't understand the incompetence of Pinnacle management. You're trying to use logic and common sense. Phildo and his minions aren't held back by such "nonsense" as logic and common sense.
 
dingo222 said:
Airdale, I hate to single you out man, but are you willing to quit over this? Not to bash, but you've done a lot of complaining about a company that you just started working for.
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I just sat in Boston for 6 hours last week because crew scheduling can't pull their head out you know where. I was supposed to block 7hrs, and get paid for it. Instead I sat at the airport for 6hrs and only flew 1.

Total time spent on duty= 10 hours from showtime to securing the aircraft
Pay credit = 4

That is complete BS and you know it. How can I make any money at this company? Answer - I can't! We fly on dogs*** wages so that we can pick up underbid contracts. I'm a few dollars short of collecting food stamps - and for what? To get cheated out of money I should be getting paid for sitting on my ass, in uniform in an airport for 6 hours!? Why the hell would ANYONE want to put up with that?

And now, without representation, whats going to happen in the near future? Okay, so the company pulls the Beech, I go to the Q, we get screwed and end up stapled to the PCL seniority list. Upgrading to Captain just went from 1.5-2 years to who the hell knows how long and our FO payscale is a slap in the face friggin joke.

Upgrade might be longer somewhere else, but QOL is definitely better then this. And if it isn't, then this industry sucks and I'll find something else to do. When friends of mine flying over at Xjet, AWAC and Republic hear of the crap we put up with over here, they are amazed.

We lost the union vote, and we can't try again for another year. Thats a very very long year "toughing it out" only to hope that people pull their head out of their ass and vote the second time around. That year can be better spent somewhere else looking toward making at least $35k your second year.

I was low time, Colgan offered me the job and its a good experience to have working at a non-union TP operator, but without a union, I can't "tough" this out for a long period of time.
 
dingo222 said:
i posted this earlier on the "other site" but i'll expand it here.



instead of bashing the 155, maybe we should figure out why they didn't vote so that this doesn't happen next year. Read the NMB rules on an election. TO vote no, a person should not vote at all OR vote for no representation.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/faqs-ola.html

Seggy and the OC spent countless hours of their well earned free time trying to make things better for all of us. It takes one hell of a person to stand up and make that sort of commitment. I said it when we first were bought out and I'll say it now:

Threats, talking down to others, dividing the group will not make this work. THis is not a alpa vs anti alpa fight. It should be us vs mgmt. Reason works a hell of a lot better than threats or bashings. THe OC had an uphill battle to start. We have something like 26 outstations??????? THere is no way they could get face time with everyone. THey did a hell of a job getting the word out. IT's up to the rest of the pilot group to encourage those on the "fence." "Teach snakes to kill other snakes." THat's the sticker that we need on our bags.

I think the apathetic people were the people who thought this would be a sure thing for alpa. THe others voted by not voting at all. It's time to find a way to change this by next year. THe OC gave it a great run and came really close. But, just like any election if you lose by a close margin you need to get out there and find out why and change those voters minds now. Scare tactics, stickers, and the like will likely harden the resolve of those against representation. Maybe pcl mgmt will give everyone a reason to vote by next year. Hopefully not, but by the resolve of the OC instead. I'm not sure how many pilot groups were able to get representation on the first try, but i'm sure it's not many. Keep your chin up, dig in the heels, and hope mgmt doesn't beat us down to bad in the next year.

Airdale, I hate to single you out man, but are you willing to quit over this? Not to bash, but you've done a lot of complaining about a company that you just started working for. It's not perfect, and all the colganites feel your pain. But saying you want to quit after people like seggy just busted his ass for a good year is just upsetting. I'll lead the way here. IF you don't like it, I challenge you to make it better by helping people like seggy in the next year. I plan on it, and hope to see you there also. My .02
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Dingo....spot on man!
I agree......and while I wasn't officially part of the OC, I've tried to explain the benefits of ALPA representation to everyone I've flown with, seen in the terminals, etc. I have been a vocal supporter and I've tried to sway the apathetic and nay-sayers as much as possible. Apparently it didn't work.....but, I really don't see things getting better in the next year and hopefully PCL management will solidify our collective resolve by repeatedly screwing us or the PCL guys. I'm completely perplexed that it didn't pass the first time......and I seriously doubt it won't pass next time...because management will most likely NOT make it better in the next year.

I'm hoping for the best but am expecting the worst.
 
I just sat in Boston for 6 hours last week because crew scheduling can't pull their head out you know where. I was supposed to block 7hrs, and get paid for it. Instead I sat at the airport for 6hrs and only flew 1.

Total time spent on duty= 10 hours from showtime to securing the aircraft
Pay credit = 4
Click to expand...

Jesus man. Don't those 1900 captains show you how to log that stuff on the pay sheet? Ready reserve is paid as the greater of actual block or half of your total duty time. 10 hours of duty equals 5 hours of pay. We did it every month up in Jimmytown. I averaged 110 hours of credit each month I was there. :D
 
Doug Taylor said:
No doubt.

The SECOND anyone bitches at Colgan, ask how they voted.

Just like folks at Southernjets who bitch about the reserve system, I always ask, "How'd ya vote"
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What do you think they'll say then? "Of course I voted!"

Because they know if they said they didn't vote they would punched in the face by me, cruise, seggy, dingo, rocketman,ect
 
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