Debate: stay at a regional, or go to a major?

ORDinary

Well-Known Member
Recently, I have been hearing more and more of the following debate among some regional pilots: should I stay or should I go? With Delta, Continental, Northwest, and United all hiring now, but none of them dong particularly well (Continental aside, maybe), I am hearing more and more regional captains wavering on this decision. I think a lot of it, obviously, has to do with age: if you are under 35 it seems obvious to go, if you are over 50 why would you, but even more obviously it depends on one's personal situation. If you are at a relatively stable regional (opinions differ on whether or not one exists), making pretty decent money (I have flown with quite a few senior guys making 100k+), holding whatever line you want every month, maybe in the base you want (or live in), then why would you want to go to a major where you will be making 30k to start, on probation, on reserve, commuting somewhere new, etc.? Obviously someday (depending on your age), you will eventually make more money than you were, and a few years after that you may even make back the money that you lost during your first few years at that major, but is it worth it?

One of the other issues is where to go. This is nothing new in the airline industry, but it is difficult nonetheless: because of the seniority system (and believe me, I am not knocking the seniority system), whichever airline first offers you a job that you jump at, in all likelihood you are now married to that airline for life. In other words, once you start to build some seniority somewhere, you will not be able to just quit and switch jobs (like in a normal, non-airline-pilot career) without losing the investment that your time at that airline has come to represent. So where to go? Northwest or Delta, fresh out of bankrupcy, where management has screwed the pilots as bad as we know that they have? United, where the pilots feel equally screwed, and where multiple labor groups (pilots included) have contracts simultaneously running out in 2009 (at least that is the rumor I think I heard)? Would you really like to be on a picket line while on probation? Continental, where you may have to commute to Newark? NEWARK!?!

Anyway, this is just a little bit of what I've been hearing from captains I fly with and I wanted to get a feel for what other people are thinking about it. Obviously everyone has to make this decision for themselves, and we should all be so lucky as to have this decision to make. The funny thing is, I'm only a 13-month, 29-year-old regional FO, so I would jump at the chance to skip regional CA and go straight to major FO. And oddly enough, that may be realistic for me to do eventually (especially since I'm at Eagle and the upgrade time is what it is).

Enough rambling. Any thoughts?
 
Go to a major.

Regional feed flying is the same concept as working at a customer service center in India.
 
Go to a major.

Regional feed flying is the same concept as working at a customer service center in India.

Would you really tell that to a 47-year-old regional captain making 110k with 16 days off a month? We have a lot of those at Eagle.
 
In your individual situation, yes, go to a major. Someone in that demographic then I would tell them to stay at Eagle and they will do quite well for themself.

But the concept is the same, Regional feed flying is outsourced work. No problem telling anyone that.
 
In your individual situation, yes, go to a major. Someone in that demographic then I would tell them to stay at Eagle and they will do quite well for themself.

But the concept is the same, Regional feed flying is outsourced work. No problem telling anyone that.

The question is, then, where do you draw the line between he and I? I know I would go, but I think for a lot of people it isn't so simple. And it is an interesting debate. Personally, I would like to go to United, but they want captain time that I won't be able to get. I'm just spoiled living in base, though, and I don't want to give it up.

And anyway, who cares that it is outsourced work? Welcome to the realities of the modern world.
 
I can't fault ANYONE who stays at a regional. There are some like ExpressJet that offer a great contract, good work rules and good management...

...at this time...

But it is all subject to change. Outsourced work is contract work. Majors own the routes and it is up to bidding, contract talk with the feeds, and majors playing one regional off another.

Your career expectations are better at a major than a regional. When the industry turns south I would much be using the call sign United 877 rather than Jetlink 2343.
 
I can't really argue with that, in general. Except that a lot of majors have gone away over the years, and a lot of major pilots have been furloughed. Ask a United or Northwest pilot if there are any guarantees at the majors and see what they say. Don't get me wrong, I'm going first chance I get, but I think the majors may be lowering their min's a little more, because a lot of guys aren't...maybe that's wishful thinking...
 
I think its good a lot of people stay at the Regionals. More jobs at the Majors for the rest of us. I'll wave when I'm taxiing past their RJ in my 737. :D
 
Also, when the industry turns south again, do you want to be at the top of a seniority list, or the bottom?
 
I can't fault ANYONE who stays at a regional. There are some like ExpressJet that offer a great contract, good work rules and good management...

...at this time...

But it is all subject to change. Outsourced work is contract work. Majors own the routes and it is up to bidding, contract talk with the feeds, and majors playing one regional off another.

Your career expectations are better at a major than a regional. When the industry turns south I would much be using the call sign United 877 rather than Jetlink 2343.


Overall, I agree with you 100%. But just to play devil's advocate.....The only thing I see, and herein lies the problem many face.....it's true it's better to be at United during a downturn. But what if you're at the bottom of the list during said downturn. Then, instead of being at the top of 'Jetlink's' list and still flying, you're on the outside looking in 'cause you got furloughed from United. Then, it would've been better to stick it out at the regional level. :confused:

It's really a very tough call and one only each individual can make. There is great risk to either choice. Stay at the regional level and wonder when the contract flying is going to get yanked out from under you.......or make the jump from the top of one seniority to the bottom of another. Personally, I'm making the jump, given the chance. I'm willing to roll-the-dice, at it were and make the move to the majors. For me, the potential reward outweighs the risk involved.....YMMV!
 
And they'll wave a paycheck twice as big back at you!

Yeah, but only for a short period of time!

My goal is to get to a Major (hopefully CAL) as quickly as possibly with the least time spent at a Regional. That way the pay hit isn't too bad and for the reasons Cruise mentioned. After a year here at Colgan, I'm applying to Majors, and I will just keep updating resumes until I get a job. I'd rather get there as fast as possible and start building time/seniority for upgrade there.
 
Just choose carefully. Remember 1999. THOUSANDS of pilots were hired at the legacy carriers only to be furloughed 3 years later. The same could happen to you. Are you prepared?

ORDinary: Do NOT bypass turbine PIC time to go to the majors even if that opportunity avails itself. There are hundreds who did that in 99 and, after being furloughed in 2001 and 2002 found themselves unqualified to get a job with another major. Many of those went back to commuters, charter, corporate, or left aviation altogether. PIC turbine is the most valuable qualification you can have, and the best insurance if you intend to remain with the airlines.

Take it from a guy who doesn't have it. ;)
 
Recently, I have been hearing more and more of the following debate among some regional pilots: should I stay or should I go? With Delta, Continental, Northwest, and United all hiring now, but none of them dong particularly well (Continental aside, maybe), I am hearing more and more regional captains wavering on this decision. I think a lot of it, obviously, has to do with age: if you are under 35 it seems obvious to go, if you are over 50 why would you, but even more obviously it depends on one's personal situation. If you are at a relatively stable regional (opinions differ on whether or not one exists), making pretty decent money (I have flown with quite a few senior guys making 100k+), holding whatever line you want every month, maybe in the base you want (or live in), then why would you want to go to a major where you will be making 30k to start, on probation, on reserve, commuting somewhere new, etc.? Obviously someday (depending on your age), you will eventually make more money than you were, and a few years after that you may even make back the money that you lost during your first few years at that major, but is it worth it?

One of the other issues is where to go. This is nothing new in the airline industry, but it is difficult nonetheless: because of the seniority system (and believe me, I am not knocking the seniority system), whichever airline first offers you a job that you jump at, in all likelihood you are now married to that airline for life. In other words, once you start to build some seniority somewhere, you will not be able to just quit and switch jobs (like in a normal, non-airline-pilot career) without losing the investment that your time at that airline has come to represent. So where to go? Northwest or Delta, fresh out of bankrupcy, where management has screwed the pilots as bad as we know that they have? United, where the pilots feel equally screwed, and where multiple labor groups (pilots included) have contracts simultaneously running out in 2009 (at least that is the rumor I think I heard)? Would you really like to be on a picket line while on probation? Continental, where you may have to commute to Newark? NEWARK!?!

Anyway, this is just a little bit of what I've been hearing from captains I fly with and I wanted to get a feel for what other people are thinking about it. Obviously everyone has to make this decision for themselves, and we should all be so lucky as to have this decision to make. The funny thing is, I'm only a 13-month, 29-year-old regional FO, so I would jump at the chance to skip regional CA and go straight to major FO. And oddly enough, that may be realistic for me to do eventually (especially since I'm at Eagle and the upgrade time is what it is).

Enough rambling. Any thoughts?



You will make well over $100K your SECOND year at my airline.
 
You will make well over $100K your SECOND year at my airline.

Wow, that's great. [size=-3]slight[/size] :sarcasm: Unfortunately, without transoceanic time.........UPS doesn't want you at the moment.

Any suggestions, instead of your typical holier-than-thou attitude?
 
Would you really tell that to a 47-year-old regional captain making 110k with 16 days off a month? We have a lot of those at Eagle.



You mean lifer? Face it, you ARE outsourced cheap labor. The EXACT same reason that the call centers in India exist. Except the jobs in India are high paying!
 
Wow, that's great. [size=-3]slight[/size] :sarcasm: Unfortunately, without transoceanic time.........UPS doesn't want you at the moment.

Any suggestions, instead of your typical holier-than-thou attitude?

I keep hearing this talk about transoceanic time for UPS..

I know a coupla' guys that just got hired there - none of them with the transoceanic time..

Not a big deal I guess, I wanna fly purple tails.. I've never looked good in brown.. ;)
 
You mean lifer? Face it, you ARE outsourced cheap labor. The EXACT same reason that the call centers in India exist. Except the jobs in India are high paying!

And what airline do you make over 100k in the second year at? Would they hire someone who doesn't have an in-company recommendation? Why do you think your situation applies to everyone else?

The fact is that most major airlines that are hiring right now make around $60/hour in year 2. See www.airlinepilotcentral.com.

I am willing to 'face it,' that I am outsourced labor. I just don't care. It is a reality of the business. The lifers at Eagle made the choices they had to make with the situation they were dealt. Most of them started at smaller regionals that were bought by Eagle and they have done okay for themselves. There's no reason to be a jerk about it. You have a bit of an inflated self-importance.
 
I keep hearing this talk about transoceanic time for UPS..

I know a coupla' guys that just got hired there - none of them with the transoceanic time..

Not a big deal I guess, I wanna fly purple tails.. I've never looked good in brown.. ;)


[size=+2]Yep, taken from APC hiring section of UPS:[/size]

Pilot application window closed since May 10th.

Interviewing M-F. Projecting approx. 230 new-hires in 2007. 1 to 2 classes per month.

Last posted minimums:
1500 TT
1000 PIC jet and/or ME turboprop
ATP or ATPw (current)
FE or FEw (current)
Bachelor's degree "preferred"
Transoceanic crossing experience as either PIC or SIC

Second year FO pay in
2008: $112/hr
2009: $122/hr
2010: $132/hr
2011: $143/hr
2012: $149/hr

Also seeking ground school instructors. MD11 instructor application.
 
ORDinary, make your own decision. Let others make theirs. It sounds like you're trying to justify a decision to stay, and trash all the majors as being horrible places to be. They're not! I left Eagle after 6 years in 2001 to go to AA. I got furloughed not once but twice but AA. Even knowing how it ended, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Some people want to stay, some people want to leave.
 
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