Move over, cowboy...

JimmyDean

JimmyDean

Well-Known Member
*true story*

You're the captain on a flight from an outstation to your domicile (ABC). Last flight before a week off. Unfortunately, you just upgraded, so you're under "high minimums" - you need to add 1/2 sm and 100 feet to the published minimums on any instrument approach.

The weather at ABC is 2SM vis, OVC002. The lowest instrument approach minimums are 1/2 sm and 200 ft AGL.

You shoot the approach. At 300 ft AGL, you execute the missed. You make an announcement to the pax and get vectors for another try.

You shoot the approach again. At 300 ft AGL, all you see is white. Another missed, and now you're starting to think about your alternate, XYZ. The weather at XYZ is good and pax services are available.

Oh, by the way, your company's chief pilot just happens to be along for the ride today. Next thing you know, he's knocking on the cockpit door and asks what the problem is. You tell him you're high mins, and the weather isn't cooperating. You're going to XYZ and you'll sort it out when the weather improves.

The chief pilot - in street clothes - says to you...

"Get up, son. I'll get us in to ABC."

Do you let him? Keep in mind, the whole plane just saw a man in street clothes walk up to the cockpit and confront the flight crew. Is it worth it, to go home for a week? Or do you tell him it's your plane, and he can have a seat?

Yes, this really did happen...
 
I would not think a CP would do that in full view of the pax, but what do I know. I would think that being High Min CA signed for the plane he would be responsible for it. It's his bird and not the CP's. But then again if there were a issue wouldn't the carpet dance be for the same CP that is on the plane....Still I would say divert, not knowing any better.
 
Was that at Big Sky? I've heard the "cowboy" stories, but that takes the cake.

And hell no, he's not taking the airplane in flight. We divert as planned and then if he wants to talk about flying the leg back into base to beat the weather, that's fine.
 
BobDDuck said:
Was that at Big Sky? I've heard the "cowboy" stories, but that takes the cake.

And hell no, he's not taking the airplane in flight. We divert as planned and then if he wants to talk about flying the leg back into base to beat the weather, that's fine.
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Gotta go with this one. You are PIC in the eyes of the FAA, regardless of what some knucklehead from Flt Ops / Training Dept has to say in flight. Only two people can remove a captain from the seat, and I'm a little doubtful about one of them. They are the FO and an FAA Safety inspector.
 
Just to clarify...

This really did happen, and the captain was relieved. The FO flew while the CA called dispatch to amend the release. Once the chief pilot was listed as PIC, the captain took a seat in the back and the chief pilot/head cowboy landed the plane.

Every passenger then got off and changed into a new pair of pants, since they all thought they just got hijacked.

From the captains point of view, that's probably the most embarrassing thing I could think of, short of landing at the wrong airport. But even then you can salvage some dignity by greasing the landing.

:panic:
 
I'd divert, land at the alternate and say, "here ya go!"

Who's to say that the chief pilot is current? And if he's not current, do you know what the FAA would do to you if you relinquished control to a non-current pilot?

The inspectors would be armwrestling to see what which one is going to have the pleasure of scoring the bust.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I'd divert, land at the alternate and say, "here ya go!"

Who's to say that the chief pilot is current? And if he's not current, do you know what the FAA would do to you if you relinquished control to a non-current pilot?

The inspectors would be armwrestling to see what which one is going to have the pleasure of scoring the bust.
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Think of it this way. (You in a general way, not directed at any one person.) You finally make it to the personal interview at your major airline of choice. God forbid that this incident follows you. How are you going to explain your thought process to the interviewers? They are hiring future captains. Being a captain (even at a regional) is a huge responsibility, and telling the cowboy to go be a good boy and go sit down and shut up goes with the job. If the CP had a beef, I would have told him to take it up with the FAA after I report him for attempting to commandeer the flight.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I'd divert, land at the alternate and say, "here ya go!"

Who's to say that the chief pilot is current? And if he's not current, do you know what the FAA would do to you if you relinquished control to a non-current pilot?

The inspectors would be armwrestling to see what which one is going to have the pleasure of scoring the bust.
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Yeah

Theres "shady" all over that.

How does this work out if the capt signs off as PIC? You can change a signature and the release that easily? What about him not possibly having the required rest and such? Theres so much room for error i see, that i wouldnt take the risk, not while in flight. On the ground, pass the controls over.
 
Any item on the release can be amended at any time with the consent of the PIC and the dispatcher working the flight.

I am sure - nay, I am positive - that the chief pilot had sufficient rest. He doesn't do flight duty too often. :crazy:
 
JimmyDean said:
Any item on the release can be amended at any time with the consent of the PIC and the dispatcher working the flight.

I am sure - nay, I am positive - that the chief pilot had sufficient rest. He doesn't do flight duty too often. :crazy:
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There's no way I'd ever relenquish my captain's authority that easily. As far as I'm concerned, the CP would have just been another passenger, albeit a more educated one concerning aviation. I'm sure that everyone on this forum who works at Southernjets will agree that regardless of who in management decides to intrude in the cockpit, they will be told to sit down, strap in, shut up, and hang on. And people wonder why regionals get a reputation for less than professional behaviour. (This is to the CP who would pull something like this, NOT the hapless pilot.)
 
He can be the PIC from the alternate to the original destination. Our ops specs says who is allowed at the controls and it doesn't mention any non-rev's
 
It's probably a small airline, small base and chances are the two knew each other on a somewhat personal basis. Judging from the usage of the term "son", that sounds a bit condescending, and who knows how well the two of them get along..... Attitude can go a long way and it he's pulling the "cowboy" card I can see where the CA would be really leery! Also, in a larger company where you may not know everyone, how would you really know if so and so is who he's claiming to be?

I think such a scenario could be considered, albeit certianly on a case-by-case basis. If the release can be ammended, disptach & ops are aware, and all the above yapping can be done in a minimal amount of time, really why not? It's not the high-mins CA's fault he's high mins, he just is! It's not like he's being a chicken and in fear, he's just high-mins.

Should such a thing be done though, it would be essential to make a PA explaining what the heck is going on to the pax. Yes, they will be freaking, but if you TELL them what is happening, and tell them briefly WHY, chances are they'll be fine with it.


I'd be pretty leery of such a situation, but part of me says never say never.
 
I'm going with diverting to the alternate! Then if dispatch agrees, and ONLY ONCE WE'RE ON THE GROUND, allow the CP to take the flight back to the original destination. This is obviously the safest choice for all parties involved, from both a legal standpoint and safety of flight. It seems to me the CP was very wrong in this instance by putting the CA in an extremely awkward spot.

Not cool! :(
 
Cruise said:
I'm going with diverting to the alternate! Then if dispatch agrees, and ONLY ONCE WE'RE ON THE GROUND, allow the CP to take the flight back to the original destination. This is obviously the safest choice for all parties involved, from both a legal standpoint and safety of flight. It seems to me the CP was very wrong in this instance by putting the CA in an extremely awkward spot.

Not cool! :(
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Isn't there a rule about pax staying seated during landing procedures or within x-miles of the airport? If he's on a go-around to attempt the approach again, isn't the CP violating regs by even getting up and knocking on the cockpit door?
 
All you have to do is get on the horn with your dispatcher and get an amended release stating that the chief pilot is now the captain on that flight. Simple as that and perfectly legal.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I'd divert, land at the alternate and say, "here ya go!"

Who's to say that the chief pilot is current? And if he's not current, do you know what the FAA would do to you if you relinquished control to a non-current pilot?

The inspectors would be armwrestling to see what which one is going to have the pleasure of scoring the bust.
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Do you ask your captain if he's current when you show for a flight?
 
Brand X said:
Do you ask your captain if he's current when you show for a flight?
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Nope... but if scheduling assigned him to the trip I am going to assume he is current. However the CP sitting in the back was never scheduled for anything.
 
Did the CP constructively suggest that it was possible for him to go 100' lower and try, or did he really say "move over". I could see it happening under the first circumstance. If he approached it the right way, it could actually have been a good exercise in CRM. If he actually barged in and announced he was the new CA, there is a big problem there.
 
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