TSA is over steppin its bounds
- Thread starter Pistolpak1
- Start date
JDMcFly
New Member
Yeah, I walked right through security in DFW with my keychain (several keys+various crap) around my neck and under my shirt. I didn't realize I had it on until I was at the gate waiting for the plane. Nice metal detector? 
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Did you guys know that you are ALLOWED to bring nail clippers? You can even have metal scissors (with points!) as long as they aren't too long. Screwdrivers, Corkscrews etc, etc, etc. Know your rights.
.Did you guys know that you are ALLOWED to bring nail clippers? You can even have metal scissors (with points!) as long as they aren't too long. Screwdrivers, Corkscrews etc, etc, etc. Know your rights.
TurdBird
Well-Known Member
In regards to both Velocipede and pilot4500, or anyone else wondering, you can be profiled in an airport. The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures. That right does not apply when you are at ports of entry into the United States. You can't flat out be told you are being searched because you were profiled, but they can come up with any reason to get around that such as you look sketchy and could be hiding something.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Again, it's not just profiling by itself, it requires basic common sense. When TSA search 70 plus elderly couple who hardly walk as if they were terrorists, or when they search children, this is lack of common sense, and this is also not using profiling.
Yes, maybe in Israel it is easier to "profile" at the airports, but by sing common sense and not searching 70 years old woman and/or children, this is also profiling which unfortunately isn't used.
Right, and maybe it was valid when the constitution was adopted 200 years ago. Times, as well as the world, have changed. You can keep live your life like our fathers did in 1787, or you can adjust laws and rules to 2007 and the current reality. But don't complain when the TSA treats you as an airline pilot as if you were one of the bad guys.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
pilot4500
IT Architect/ Former Cirrus Charter Pilot
I think the biggest problem that the TSA faces is the complete lack of common sense. Does it make sense to treat 80 year old grandmas, children, and airline crews as if they are terrorists? Not at all. I am afraid that applying a very minimal amount of common sense is not something that TSA is capable of doing.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
It's the government. No really, I'm serious, it's the government. They are neither efficient or make sense.
Think there is a word that explains everything in one word.
Bureaucracy. Or Bureaucrazy, as I sometimes call it!
tonyw
Well-Known Member
If you really think this, the terrorists have won.
And if you think they're not smart enough to get around profiling, you've got another thing coming. You've got white women who carried out suicide bombings already. Start profiling "middle eastern men" and guess what they'll do?
Wanna know what Muslim country has the largest population?
Hint, hint. It ain't in the middle east.
You wanna profile those people, too?
Oh, what about John Lindh Walker? Sure looked "middle eastern," huh?
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Ooh, ooh, the answer is Indonesia!
:bandit:I think you mean John Walker Lindh.
You're right, he doesn't "look" muslim. However, just because there are a couple non-muslim looking people out there trying to cause problems......the majority of issues with terrorists fall into the, ahem, "stereotypical" terrorist mold. Men of Middle Eastern descent between the ages of 15 - 50....blah blah blah. Are there other races of people who are terrorists, OF COURSE. But again, for the most part, we should focus our scrutiny on the stereotype; all the while continuing to monitor the rest of the populous.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we ought to ignore these people. I'm just saying that profiling based on it is easily defeated.
And if they start getting folks from Indonesia -- there's already a very active al Qaeda cell there -- now you have to profile all Asians.
How would the TSA know if they caught an Asian terrorist or not since they all look alike anyway?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I'm so happy to see so many people willing to burn the village in order to save it. . .
At what point will they realize there is no longer a village (the US) to save.
Sad.
At what point will they realize there is no longer a village (the US) to save.
Sad.
The L Train
Well-Known Member
The issues I have had with the TSA recently have been frustrating. I took my 20 month son to ATL to go to a baseball game the other week. They would not let me take a bottle of sunscreen that was more than the 3.4 oz. size. I thought it would fall under the over the counter medications. Unfortunately it wasn't, but you can take more than 3 oz. of a personal lubricant. At the game I bought my son a braves nerf type baseball bat. They tried to give me grief about that. How many times have you seen people with skateboards or tennis rackets? Again, common sense.
The other day my parents were flying out after visiting. My dad normally checks his toiletry bag, but put it in his carry on this time because of medications. He neglected to pack everything in a 1 qt bag. They saw this in the x-ray, and opend it up. The screener proceded to remove all the liquids from his carry on, all but one were less than the 3 oz., and throw them away. They asked if they could get a bag, or check the one item over the limit. The screener said no, that it was too late. Maybe something has changed, but I thought they had to give them the option for the liquids.
The other day my parents were flying out after visiting. My dad normally checks his toiletry bag, but put it in his carry on this time because of medications. He neglected to pack everything in a 1 qt bag. They saw this in the x-ray, and opend it up. The screener proceded to remove all the liquids from his carry on, all but one were less than the 3 oz., and throw them away. They asked if they could get a bag, or check the one item over the limit. The screener said no, that it was too late. Maybe something has changed, but I thought they had to give them the option for the liquids.
Well, sorry to tell you this, but so far they are winning. We are the ones who can't take water on board, we are the ones who need to dump our after shave and tooth paste before boarding, we go through the burden of what the TSA calls security. When an airline pilot needs to spend one minute too much in the Xray machine convincing TSA that he/she does not need a password, they won.
Also, since I know something about profiling passengers, I can tell you for fact that it does work and it would work here too. Those who need to be searched by TSA would be searched, but the majority of people who are currently being searched without a reason would clear security quickly. It works, it's a fact.
What exactly are you fighting for here...? What kind of "freedom" do you have when you go through this joke called TSA, and they have you toss your 4 oz of whatever-liquid-you-have?! Standing up for your rights and freedom is great, but you don't get either here....you don't get your freedom and you don't get security, so you are in a loose-loose situation,are you not?
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
It may be a fact that it works in Israel, but we're not Israel and you really have no grounds for saying it would work here. We're a much larger and drastically more diverse country.
Who would determine who "needs" to be searched? Who would you trust to do that? Do we limit it to Muslims? Or people that just look Muslim? What does a muslim look like? What about Muslim converts with American-sounding names? Should we make Muslims wear some kind of patch or ID?
Look, as a crewmember I'm most concerned about lone crazy people who are insane enough to think that they can sneak something past security and take on an entire planeload of passengers. This country has had numerous terrorist events where nutcases acting alone have committed horrible acts of terror. Unabomber? DC Snipers? VA Tech Shooter? Tim McVeigh? Which of these guys would have been snared by racial profiling (yes, I know DC guys were converted muslims, but they didn't look it, you know). If the TSA focuses more energy on one group than another, by definition they're paying less attention to others, which I don't like. Just do your jobs, and make sure bad crap doesn't get on the plane.
What works for a tiny, tightly-controlled country of 7 million isn't necessarily right for the US.
Since 9/11 many, many security experts talked about "how to secure our airports" and in every discussion the example of the Israeli security came up course (BTW, the system was adopted by many airports in Europe years ago, so don't use the "tiny 7 Million people country" example). Never in this discussion any one said about "it will/will not work" in the US. You know very well that everyone who says "it won'r work here" speaks out whith the word "freedom" in the back of their mind, not a concrete proove that it won't work because of the size of the country.
Also, sorry for being politically incorrect here, but I just have to say that: not all Muslims are terrorists, but so far all terrorists were muslims.
Yes, I know Timothy McVeigh wasn't, Unabomber wasn't either and so is VA Tech shooter. But they are very small minority. You can find crazy people everywhere on the plannet but there is only one major tendency of big terror attacks that you can point at.
As I said, profiling is not everything. Profiling won't work without good inteligence. But it can work if used wisely. Unfortunately the voices agains profiling here in the US come from "we will loose our privacy" and not from "this country is too big, it won't work" and we both know that.
The bottom line is - there is no real security at the airports now and those who say/believe there is, are either naive or dumb.