Use MESA as a time-building tool?

[CapnJim]

SJS is a fine excuse, but I don't recall having any ALPA guidance when I was a CFI. What knowledge I gained I gained from Jetcareers and those few airline pilots I was fortunate enough to run into.

If crap rolls uphill, then the acme of ignorance is to try and dam it up halfway, when its already built up an unstoppable head of steam.

Just a thought.

 

[Seggy]

SJS is a fine excuse, but I don't recall having any ALPA guidance when I was a CFI. What knowledge I gained I gained from Jetcareers and those few airline pilots I was fortunate enough to run into.

If crap rolls uphill, then the acme of ignorance is to try and dam it up halfway, when its already built up an unstoppable head of steam.

Just a thought.

Jim SJS is not an excuse it is a fact.

I agree with you ALPA is doing NOTHING to educate CFIs, college students, high school students, etc. It is up to US to change that. They are sending about 120 people on Jetcareers Flying the Line Volumes about the history of ALPA. More needs to be done though to educate CFIs and others who want a career in airlines though about the benefits of a union.

If someone is paying $55 an hour for a captain on a 76 seat airplane, what is to prevent management from saying, "Why don't we pay $110 an hour for a captain on a 152 seat airplane. We have guys who are flying an airplane half your size for half that rate."

 

[Chris_Ford]

Getting Continental back in ALPA as well as FEDEX in recent times are successes of ALPA. Look at the FEDEX contract! Also I am sure there are thousands of guys out there, that thanks ALPA, have their own little successes. Perhaps saving their job, certificate, or helping them out when they were in a bind. It would be impossible to see all the real successes of ALPA.

And then look at the COA contract. They do plenty of good things with certificate issues and things. However, the bulk of their "business" (read:contract) has been poorly worked (especially on the regional level).

I'm not saying that having ALPA on property is necessarily a bad thing, but they are no end-all, be-all. They haven't been doing much to turn things around system-wide.

You're able to cite FDX. COA/Mesa/TSA are just the easiest three that come off my head.

 

[Seggy]

I'm not saying that having ALPA on property is necessarily a bad thing, but they are no end-all, be-all. They haven't been doing much to turn things around system-wide.

Agreed they are not the end-all, be-all. ALPA is only as strong as their pilots.

When Comair was able to negotiate those rates when the going was good was their much complaining?

Look at the "system-wide" things that have happened since September 10, 2001. It hasn't been pretty.

Here is what REALLY annoys me. When the going is good, no one thanks ALPA. When things suck they seem to be the lightning rod that has to take all the strikes.

 

[CapnJim]

Jim SJS is not an excuse it is a fact.

I agree with you ALPA is doing NOTHING to educate CFIs, college students, high school students, etc. It is up to US to change that. They are sending about 120 people on Jetcareers Flying the Line Volumes about the history of ALPA. More needs to be done though to educate CFIs and others who want a career in airlines though about the benefits of a union.

If someone is paying $55 an hour for a captain on a 76 seat airplane, what is to prevent management from saying, "Why don't we pay $110 an hour for a captain on a 152 seat airplane. We have guys who are flying an airplane half your size for half that rate."

SJS is not just a "fact". It is a perception that is perpetuated by flight schools, capitalized on by the regionals, and the connection between the two is no farther away than the ATP banner ad at the top of your screen. But you're right, ALPA does absolutely nothing to fight it. Why? Because CFI's don't pay dues. But hey! Regional pilots do, and they're a built-in piece-of-cake scapegoat, and that scapegoatism has been bought by all of us, from the non-regional new hire all they way up to the 777 CA worrying about his retirement.

Seggy, that's wrong. There's nothing else for it. It's wrong.

So what are you going do about it? For my part, and as an ALPA member, I keep in touch with my old students, tell them to stay away from regionals with poor contracts, and try to tell them as best I can what the most sucessful route for them to take in their career is. That's what I do personally. ALPA dosen't encourage that though. It appears that that kind of thing is utterly off ALPA's radar. What can we do to change that? We are all in the same boat here, so no more excuses. Let's have answers.

 

[Seggy]

SJS is not just a "fact". It is a perception that is perpetuated by flight schools, capitalized on by the regionals, and the connection between the two is no farther away than the ATP banner ad at the top of your screen. But you're right, ALPA does absolutely nothing to fight it. Why? Because CFI's don't pay dues. But hey! Regional pilots do, and they're a built-in piece-of-cake scapegoat, and that scapegoatism has been bought by all of us, from the non-regional new hire all they way up to the 777 CA worrying about his retirement.

Seggy, that's wrong. There's nothing else for it. It's wrong..

No it is a fact. Did you see my post about the AIM I got? This guy did his training at a local mom and pop flight school.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/46915-im-i-got.html

What is this message then? He told me I should be going to fly a CRJ-900 for Mesa. How does one respond?

As pilots we are ALL responsible for our future. There should not be scapegoatism, but when someone is willing to stoop as low as pay for a job, go to an alter-ego carrier, it is hard for progress to be made.

Yes ALPA does need to do a MUCH better job educating those coming up.

So what are you going do about it?

Are you asking me on an individual basis this question?

 

[derg]

I think the problem with using one regional as a time builder to get on at ANOTHER regional, is probably that those two regionals compete with one another.

What I mean by that is that if "Airline A" has low wages and a steady flow of pilots and are able to keep costs low and throw out lowball RFP's to keep those leased RJ's flying, "Airline B" with better work rules and wages is going to be under tremendous pressure to match "Airline A's" cost structure.

Then when "Airline B's" pilots want contractual improvements, they'll shrug and say, "Actually, we need a pay cut out of you guys else "Airline A" is going to underbid our flying."

 

[kellwolf]

Well, as a person currently flying for a regional with a crappy contract, there's more to it than just "stay away from regionals with crappy contracts." I actually COULD be at XJT right now. I chose Pinnacle instead. Why the heck would I do that? Well, I live at home, don't have to commute and as result have more days off a month. Sure, I'd be getting paid more at XJT and be treated better, but time home with my family was a little higher on the priority list. Sorry if that lowers the bar for the industry, but sometimes I gotta look out for #1.

Getting ALPA on property at Colgan would go a LOOOOONG way towards helping Pinnacle. It takes the whipsaw card out of managment's paws. If ALPA gets approved over there, you'll probably either see seniority list integration a la Republic or some sort of agreement between the two MECs to keep a whipsaw from happening. Suddenly, management loses what they more than likely bought Colgan for, a pilot group they can go to and say "You WILL fly for this or you can find another job." Seggy's already put his sack on the line to try to make that happen, and I'm damn glad he's working over there to make MY life a little bit better.

Until ALPA can get a say-so in airline hiring practices (which will more than likely never happen), I don't honestly see how they as a group can deter SJS. The best way they can go about it is to educate those that are thinking of getting into this as a career. That's an uphill battle seeing as they can barely get most of their individual MECs to keep from undercutting each other or stabbing each other in the back to save their pensions, jobs, etc. It's not MY fault some DC-9 drivers got furloughed several years ago and those routes are now being flown by RJs. Heck, I didn't even have a commercial cert when that happened. But there are plenty of NWA mainline guys that will toss that albatross around my neck. Some are probably the same ones that tossed their own low seniority guys under the bus in their latest contract.

 

[CapnJim]

No it is a fact. Did you see my post about the AIM I got? This guy did his training at a local mom and pop flight school.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/46915-im-i-got.html

What is this message then? He told me I should be going to fly a CRJ-900 for Mesa. How does one respond?

As pilots we are ALL responsible for our future. There should not be scapegoatism, but when someone is willing to stoop as low as pay for a job, go to an alter-ego carrier, it is hard for progress to be made.

Yes ALPA does need to do a MUCH better job educating those coming up.

Are you asking me on an individual basis this question?

That's my point, Seggy. That kid didn't have a clue. He's a lamb to slaughter. All he sees is glossy flight school ads, cheap student loans, and academy-backed career fairs.

That kid has no idea that he's "Stooping so low" or going to an "alter-ego carrier". He has no idea what that even means. He came to you for answers, and what did you tell him???

SJS er: hows prop life bud
SJSer:out of curiosity, why didnt u go to Mesa
SJSer):and get in the 900
Mas757200 (4:28:50 PM):and get paid 17K a year
Mas757200 (4:28:56 PM):to fly a DC-9 series of aircraft?
SJSer(4:28:58 PM):lol
SJSer (4:29:05 PM):well its newer for one
SJSer (4:29:11 PM):its over 20k #
Mas757200 (4:29:17 PM):DUDE
Mas757200 (4:29:19 PM):STOP
Mas757200 (4:29:25 PM):this is why people get paid for ####
SJSer(4:29:23 PM):and its jet time, longer legs, little more fun

Mas757200 (4:30:34 PM):why dont you go there?

SJSer(4:30:46 PM):because i make 65k flying a desk
Mas757200 (4:31:00 PM):and thats good
SJSer (4:31:09 PM):yea it is
SJSer):id get back to flying to meet a job requirement thats all
SJSer):i need 1000 of jet SIC to qualify for a job i want in sales
Mas757200 (4:32:04 PM):then go to MESA
SJSer (4:32:11 PM):i prolly will

Mas757200 (4:32:34 PM):good for you
SJSer):i dont care about the flying part
SJSer):and the company would subsidize the difference of the 17k
Mas757200 (4:40:16 PM):just out of curiosity
SJSer (4:40:18 PM):yup
Mas757200 (4:40:22 PM):what do u think i should do with my career
SJSer (4:40:26 PM):in terms of?
Mas757200 (4:40:41 PM):so I can get to a major
SJSer (4:40:52 PM):trick question ?
Mas757200 (4:40:58 PM):no
Mas757200 (4:41:01 PM):i want to know
SJSER (4:41:37 PM):do you want an honest answer in terms of what i think, or do you already have set in your way of what you want and this is a "lets see what this kid THINKS he knows about airline life"?

JACK FRIGGIN' SQUAT. That's what you told him. You gave him a bunch of side-talk and half-answers, talking down to him and not explaining ONE DAMN THING that he needs to know as to why he should not go to Mesa. It's clear as a bell in the last line that he saw right through it too. Dude, are you serious? Did you really just post that to bolster your case?

When you wonder why these kids dont' have a clue, you can go look in the mirror, ALPA leader. Meantime, I'll be on the phone with new COMMs and CFIs explaining thorougly, intelligently, and respectfully why working for a regional with a good contract is not only in their best interest, but in all of ours.

I suggest you loose the simplistic "I hate RJ's" attidude. It just dosen't pass muster anymore.

 

[Seggy]

That's my point, Seggy. That kid didn't have a clue. He's a lamb to slaughter. All he sees is glossy flight school ads, cheap student loans, and academy-backed career fairs.

That kid has no idea that he's "Stooping so low" or going to an "alter-ego carrier". He has no idea what that even means. He came to you for answers, and what did you tell him???



JACK FRIGGIN' SQUAT. That's what you told him. You gave him a bunch of side-talk and half-answers, talking down to him and not explaining ONE DAMN THING that he needs to know as to why he should not go to Mesa. It's clear as a bell in the last line that he saw right through it too. Dude, are you serious? Did you really just post that to bolster your case?

When you wonder why these kids dont' have a clue, you can go look in the mirror, ALPA leader. Meantime, I'll be on the phone with new COMMs and CFIs explaining thorougly, intelligently, and respectfully why working for a regional with a good contract is not only in their best interest, but in all of ours.

I suggest you loose the simplistic "I hate RJ's" attidude. It just dosen't pass muster anymore.

Geez, I must have struck a nerve. Sorry about that. I really don't have a simplistic "I hate RJ" attitude. It is pretty much all kidding. In the end it doesn't matter WHAT you fly, I know that. It matters what type of person you are. If ExpressJet called before Colgan, and offered my rear end a job, guess were I would have ended up? I have a lot of close friends that fly RJs, I don't go around beating them up. My roommate puts a kite on my bed all the time to represent the size of the airplane I fly.

I have talked to this guy for about three years in the IM. We really started out together in our flight training and went different ways. He was actually flying around in a King Air for about 50 hours as well.

The other thing I find interesting to is that, according to the current plan, my airline is going to be taking away flying that YOUR company has in YOUR base. Not only are we going to be taking it away, but we are for substandard wages, crappy work-rules, and a potentially alter-ego type of situation. Myself as well as others with Colgan WANT to change that by brining ALPA on property, to raise the bar, and have airlines compete for contracts based on service and performance, rather than undercut each other with crappy wages. So I am a little confused when I get flak from someone at an ALPA carrier about what I have risked a lot to try to bring to my company.

You guys at XJET are kicka$$ and have helped us a lot organize with Colgan. We could use yours!

Sorry I struck a nerve. Didn't mean to. Just trying to bring up some points about an issue I feel very strong about at this time, that is ALPA. I think, that in the end of the day, the way you will protect YOUR flying and YOUR contract is having a unified national pilot group, through ALPA. If not, regional executives are blood thirsty individuals who want the biggest peace of the pie, while others go hungry.


PS-About the education of CFIs. Like I said in an earlier post, ALPA has a list of about 120 guys on Jetcareers that they are working on getting Flying the Line Vol. I and II that they are going to send them. Have to start at some point.

 

[CapnJim]

Geez, I must have struck a nerve. Sorry about that. I really don't have a simplistic "I hate RJ" attitude. It is pretty much all kidding. In the end it doesn't matter WHAT you fly, I know that. It matters what type of person you are. If ExpressJet called before Colgan, and offered my rear end a job, guess were I would have ended up? I have a lot of close friends that fly RJs, I don't go around beating them up. My roomate puts a kite on my bed all the time to represent the size of the airplane I fly.

I have talked to this guy for about three years in the IM. We really started out together in our flight training and went different ways. He was actually flying around in a King Air for about 50 hours as well.

The other thing I find interesting to is that, according to the current plan, my airline is going to be taking away flying that YOUR company has in YOUR base. Not only are we going to be taking it away, but we are for substandard wages, crappy work-rules, and a potentially alter-ego type of situation. Myself as well as others with Colgan WANT to change that by brining ALPA on property, to raise the bar, and have airlines compete for contracts based on service and performance, rather than undercut each other with crappy wages. So I am a little confused when I get flak from someone at an ALPA carrier about what I have risked a lot to try to bring to my company.

You guys at XJET are kicka$$ and have helped us a lot organize with Colgan. We could use yours!

Sorry I struck a nerve. Didn't mean to. Just trying to bring up some points about an issue I feel very strong about at this time, that is ALPA.


PS-About the education of CFIs. Like I said in an earlier post, ALPA has a list of about 120 guys on Jetcareers that they are working on getting Flying the Line Vol. I and II that they are going to send them. Have to start at some point.

Ahhh, Seggy, I'm sorry I got worked up. It has nothing to do with you, I just get tired of the Regionals being scapegoated for the ails of the industry-- it's like dropping the brake when the bags are late; it just masks the problem.

I'd like to see ALPA take a more proactive approach with the CFI's. It's painfully clear to me that the flight academy/crap regional relationship is self-perpetuating and hinged on taking advantage of bright-eyed young men and women who love aviation. I'm going to keep fighting against that. It would be nice, however, if I didn't have to fight on two fronts.

Good on you for getting Flying the Line out to those guys man. Class move.

 

[CapnJim]

Oh yeah! As for that flying you guys are going to get: Man, as far as I'm concerned, that's a win-win. We have a crap load of routes that have no business being served by a jet. ALB, BUF, SYR, BDL, etc... those legs are a royal pain in the afternoon being right under the arrival route- the ground stops are horrendous. Yeah, we'll lose some lines, but I think the ones rebuilt will help QOL and commutability.

By the way, where are they going to park you guys?

 

[Seggy]

Ahhh, Seggy, I'm sorry I got worked up. It has nothing to do with you, I just get tired of the Regionals being scapegoated for the ails of the industry-- it's like dropping the brake when the bags are late; it just masks the problem.

I'd like to see ALPA take a more proactive approach with the CFI's. It's painfully clear to me that the flight academy/crap regional relationship is self-perpetuating and hinged on taking advantage of bright-eyed young men and women who love aviation. I'm going to keep fighting against that. It would be nice, however, if I didn't have to fight on two fronts.

Good on you for getting Flying the Line out to those guys man. Class move.

No worries! I think some of what I said might have been lost in translation

First, concerning the AIM from the guy I know. I have known him for three years have had NUMEROUS conversations about different airlines out there and is hellbent on getting to Mesa, because he thinks it is a "quick upgrade in a jet." That is pretty much the only reason he want to go there. He is the type who is hearing what HE wants to hear

I agree it is COMPLETE BS that regionals are being made to be scapegoats of the industry. If any of my posts sound that way, I DO NOT mean that. There are problems at all places and we have to work together to fix it. Not fight it.

ALPA NEEDS to take a much more proactive role with CFIs. I told a few months ago that they should start going to these academies such as ATP, FlightSafety, Ari-Ben, and the larger flight schools to explain the benefits of ALPA. They liked that idea and once the organizing drive is done, they have asked if I would be interested in starting a program to educate those men and women who want to fulfill a career in aviation about the benefits of ALPA. Could use your help down the road!

No hard feelings Jim, if I struck a nerve I aplogize, didn't mean to, nothing at all personal.

We have to meet! First beer is on me!

 

[Seggy]

Oh yeah! As for that flying you guys are going to get: Man, as far as I'm concerned, that's a win-win. We have a crap load of routes that have no business being served by a jet. ALB, BUF, SYR, BDL, etc... those legs are a royal pain in the afternoon being right under the arrival route- the ground stops are horrendous. Yeah, we'll lose some lines, but I think the ones rebuilt will help QOL and commutability.

By the way, where are they going to park you guys?

Yeah you are going to want to check your PMs on that one.

 

[pullup]

We have a crap load of routes that have no business being served by a jet. ALB, BUF, SYR, BDL, etc...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Them's fightin' words!!!!