Where to go? - ATP, UVSC

F

Future DIA Pilot

New Member
Hello,

I am going to be a freshman at Utah Valley State College in about a week and a half.

I am asking for some advice about flight training. I know there is no right/wrong answer, but I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

As of right now, I would do all of my flight training at ATP in the summer after my freshman year. But after reading a recent post, I am wondering if that is the best choice because they cost $50,000.

I could also do all the flight training at UVSC, but I don't know if I could get as many multi hours for the same price as ATP.

Are there any other ideas anyone has? I'd really appreciate anything at all.

I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

Thank you very much,
Kevin
 
Take note everybody, because I really wish I had done this. If I had, I would probably be in Denny's shoes right now, or damn close.

Go to ATP and get your ratings. Instruct anywhere you can. If UVSC will hire you, sweet. If you've gotta make the drive to Heber and go work at OK3, then do it.

DO NOT GO ANYWHERE UNTIL YOU FINISH COLLEGE. GET YOUR 4 YEAR DEGREE!!!!!

When you graduate, you'll easily have over 1,200 hours. This will allow you to go to any regional you want, or if you want to do freight then you can be a direct entry hire on the Beech 99 with as much multi time as you'll have and start logging turbine PIC time right away.

You'll have TONS of options open to you at that point, just make sure you finish the degree first. People will try to talk with you about senority, upgrading, blah blah blah, but you need that degree first in my opinion.
 
Future DIA Pilot said:
Hello,

I am going to be a freshman at Utah Valley State College in about a week and a half.

I am asking for some advice about flight training. I know there is no right/wrong answer, but I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

As of right now, I would do all of my flight training at ATP in the summer after my freshman year. But after reading a recent post, I am wondering if that is the best choice because they cost $50,000.

I could also do all the flight training at UVSC, but I don't know if I could get as many multi hours for the same price as ATP.

Are there any other ideas anyone has? I'd really appreciate anything at all.

I just want to make sure I've considered all possibilities.

Thank you very much,
Kevin
Click to expand...
I already responded to your PM but I think this should be out for anyone considering their training to read.

My personal experience with training at UVSC:

The place is a joke.

I can guarantee that any training you do with UVSC will take at least twice as long as it should. I waited 2 months for a PPL instructor, 8 for an instrument instructor (the school never gave me one, I had to find my own), and it was 4 months after I finished my Instrument rating that they called me with an instructor, but I had decided to go to another school and was already set for the checkride by that time.

The quality of training (the curriculum not the instructors themselves) is pretty low. They actually handed me a script to use while talking to the tower and told me I was required to use it. This was the response to a few people having trouble on the radio, make everyone read a script.

When I passed my PPL and Instrument rides I was accosted by bunches of instructors that I had never met before that wanted to know every question that the examiner had asked me; wanted me to write up a list so they could give it to their students, instead of teaching them in the first place.

On my CFI checkride the examiner actually thanked me for "not being another UVSC pilot". I guess he fails a lot of them.

Kevin, if you are here in UT then please look further than UVSC, I have heard that there are some decent schools in the SLC area, there is an excellent instructor out of Brigham City that I know of, or you could come tour my place in Spanish Fork.
 
Wow, that sounds like they really have a lot of room for improvement. Thank you for your insight. I'm just curious: how long ago did all this happen?

Does the place in Spanish Fork charge by the hour or is it a fixed cost? That's what sounds so great about ATP.

Again, I really appreciate you letting me know about your experience.

- Kevin
 
Hey!! I live in West Jordan close to U42, read my post, http://forums.jetcareers.com/general-topics/46236-i-made-my-decision.html

I was in the same boat, but I am doing the ATP route in PHX, you will find some here that think you should spend 2 yrs getting your ratings.... and take your time, save money, and use Microsoft Flight Sim for your IFR stuff....... Anyway, my post should have a lot of back and forth for answers you're looking for.

Hey, we should go up sometime, fly to PTL for a lunch in or something...
 
jtrain609 said:
Take note everybody, because I really wish I had done this. If I had, I would probably be in Denny's shoes right now, or damn close.

Go to ATP and get your ratings. Instruct anywhere you can. If UVSC will hire you, sweet. If you've gotta make the drive to Heber and go work at OK3, then do it.

DO NOT GO ANYWHERE UNTIL YOU FINISH COLLEGE. GET YOUR 4 YEAR DEGREE!!!!!

When you graduate, you'll easily have over 1,200 hours. This will allow you to go to any regional you want, or if you want to do freight then you can be a direct entry hire on the Beech 99 with as much multi time as you'll have and start logging turbine PIC time right away.

You'll have TONS of options open to you at that point, just make sure you finish the degree first. People will try to talk with you about senority, upgrading, blah blah blah, but you need that degree first in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Yes, get your degree..... (I already have mine :-) :panic:

My goal is to get to ATP, comeback, and be a CFI anywhere, KW Aviation out of OGD had said they would hire me, I started my flight training there..... DUDE, Kevin, we could start our own FBO... than go Bankrupt because every one goes to ATP LOL :banghead:
 
Future DIA Pilot said:
Wow, that sounds like they really have a lot of room for improvement. Thank you for your insight. I'm just curious: how long ago did all this happen?

Does the place in Spanish Fork charge by the hour or is it a fixed cost? That's what sounds so great about ATP.

Again, I really appreciate you letting me know about your experience.

- Kevin
Click to expand...
I left UVSC in February of this year. From what I have heard it has gotten worse, not better.

We charge by the hour, which is A TON less than a flat rate, flat rate is ridiculous. $49995/200 hours= $249.98 per flight hour. That is for hours that you receive instruction, and hours that you don't. Looking at the last page of my log book I have a total of 76 hours of instruction received through CFI.

Edit to add:
As per the FAR you need:
15 hours instruction for the instrument rating
20 hours instruction for the Commercial License


We charge:
$35 an hour for instruction
DA20: $90 an hour
DA40: $130 an hour (G1000)
PA28R-201: $104 an hour (complex aircraft for commercial)
DA42: $205 an hour (G1000 diesel engined twin)

If you don't need instruction, you don't pay for it. If you do the math, it is a lot cheaper going at an hourly rate.

As for pace, I was flying 2 and 3 times a day working on my Commercial and CFI, if you want to do things quickly, you can, it all depends on you.
 
bdhill1979 said:
Edit to add:
As per the FAR you need:
15 hours instruction for the instrument rating
20 hours instruction for the Commercial License
Click to expand...

I was under the impression you'd need only 10 hours if you already have your IFR rating. And if you only have a PPL than you'd need only 17 hours since you receive 3 hours under the hood during your PP.
 
TheAlchemist said:
I was under the impression you'd need only 10 hours if you already have your IFR rating. And if you only have a PPL than you'd need only 17 hours since you receive 3 hours under the hood during your PP.
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[SIZE=-1]From :www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headqu...fs/afs800/afs810/checklist/media/aero-exp.doc[/SIZE]
NOTE 4: Applicants for a commercial pilot certificate with the airplane single engine, airplane multiengine, helicopter, gyroplane, or powered-lift ratings and who already holds an instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class rating sought are not required to accomplish an additional “. . . 10 hours of instrument training . . .” as stated in § 61.129(a)(3)(i); § 61.129(b)(3)(i); § 61.129(c)(3)(i); § 61.129(d)(3)(i); and § 61.129(e)(3)(i). However, the required commercial pilot training hour requirements [i.e., ". . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127 . . ."] of 20 hours in § 61.129(a)(3), (b)(3), (c)(3), (d)(3), and (e)(3) cannot be reduced to 10 hours.
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training that applies to one certificate or rating, cannot be applied to another.
 
Amen to don't go to UVSC. My husband went there, he's an instructor right now, and it took probably 4 times longer to get to this point than it should have. It took 6 months just to get through the process of being hired as a CFI, and that's while students were desperate for instructors, but UVSC just couldn't get it together fast enough. I disagree about getting your degree first. I think you can try to work on both at the same time, but I would put more emphasis on the hours, getting to the regional, and then finishing up the degree once you are there. Disagree me all you want, if we had gone that way my husband would be a CA right now instead of a CFI.
 
TheWife said:
Amen to don't go to UVSC. My husband went there, he's an instructor right now, and it took probably 4 times longer to get to this point than it should have. It took 6 months just to get through the process of being hired as a CFI, and that's while students were desperate for instructors, but UVSC just couldn't get it together fast enough. I disagree about getting your degree first. I think you can try to work on both at the same time, but I would put more emphasis on the hours, getting to the regional, and then finishing up the degree once you are there. Disagree me all you want, if we had gone that way my husband would be a CA right now instead of a CFI.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention that, getting hired as a CFI at UVSC is harder than the Spanish Inquisition, even if you got your CFI training there.

I had my CFI job before I had the certificate, I started with my first student the day after my checkride.
 
Go get your 4 year done, thats way harder than any rating you'll get.

bdhill1979 said:
I left UVSC in February of this year. From what I have heard it has gotten worse, not better.

We charge by the hour, which is A TON less than a flat rate, flat rate is ridiculous. $49995/200 hours= $249.98 per flight hour. That is for hours that you receive instruction, and hours that you don't. Looking at the last page of my log book I have a total of 76 hours of instruction received through CFI.

Edit to add:
As per the FAR you need:
15 hours instruction for the instrument rating
20 hours instruction for the Commercial License


We charge:
$35 an hour for instruction
DA20: $90 an hour
DA40: $130 an hour (G1000)
PA28R-201: $104 an hour (complex aircraft for commercial)
DA42: $205 an hour (G1000 diesel engined twin)

If you don't need instruction, you don't pay for it. If you do the math, it is a lot cheaper going at an hourly rate.

As for pace, I was flying 2 and 3 times a day working on my Commercial and CFI, if you want to do things quickly, you can, it all depends on you.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a great place to instruct! Bet you building hours quick. Now in defense of ATP, dividing 49,995 by 200 hrs isn't a fair statement towards the cost. All your Jep books(we all know those are expensive), FAA books, 4 month Jep chart subscription(we all know thats really expensive), and PTS books are paid for. Your housing is paid for (Fully furnished apartment, not dorm room, with numerous ammenities. My buddy here says its at least 1100 a month for an apartment like that). Unlimited FRASCA and AST use. All planes standized with at least 1 G430 and HSI. Your writtens are paid for. Hotel, taxi, rental car accomodations during your across the united states cross countries are paid for. Any airline flights you need to take to CFI school is paid for. Your citation jet course is paid for. Your examiner fees are not paid for and neither is your food but thats about it. Now if you add all those factors in will your school be cheaper?:)

I didn't do the 90 day program because I trained at my university while in school but I sure did know where I was going to finish up when I got out of school!
 
777forever said:
FAA books
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Those are free from the FAA, the jep books just rehash the same info

777forever said:
4 month Jep chart subscription(we all know thats really expensive)
Click to expand...
Or pay $39 a year and get them from the AOPA website

777forever said:
PTS books are paid for
Click to expand...
Also free from the FAA

777forever said:
Your writtens are paid for
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At $70 a piece that is only $490 (IP, Comm, IGI, AGI, FOI, FIA, CFII)

777forever said:
Your citation jet course is paid for.
Click to expand...
Do you get a type rating out of that?

777forever said:
Now if you add all those factors in will your school be cheaper?:)
Click to expand...
Yes, by about $20,000
 
bdhill1979 said:
Those are free from the FAA, the jep books just rehash the same info


Or pay $39 a year and get them from the AOPA website


Also free from the FAA


At $70 a piece that is only $490 (IP, Comm, IGI, AGI, FOI, FIA, CFII)


Do you get a type rating out of that?


Yes, by about $20,000
Click to expand...

You are going to print out every FAA book? You are going to print out every PTS? You are going to print out every single approach chart and low enroute chart from AOPA to have with me in flight? You are going to provide me across the USA cross country experience and pay for my hotel and transportation? You will also pay for my fully furnished apartment while I am training at your school? And you can get me done somewhere in the ballpark of 90 days for 20k less? Tell me where so I can sign up!
 
777forever said:
You are going to print out every FAA book? You are going to print out every PTS? You are going to print out every single approach chart and low enroute chart from AOPA to have with me in flight? You are going to provide me across the USA cross country experience and pay for my hotel and transportation? You will also pay for my fully furnished apartment while I am training at your school? And you can get me done somewhere in the ballpark of 90 days for 20k less? Tell me where so I can sign up!
Click to expand...
Print out no, but you are using a computer right now aren't you? We do live on the 21st century.

Why would a student pilot ever need EVERY approach plate in publication? just print the ones you need.

Low altitude enroute charts cost $4.50 at the FBO, buy the ones you need.

As for lodging and all that, those are cost incurred by attending a program like that, our students live here.


One thing that I think a lot of people forget is that the program does not necessarily make the pilot, it is what the pilot makes of the program that matters most. I have met people that did the ATP 90 day program that were very sharp, very good pilots. On the other hand I have met others that came through the program that didn't know the first thing about what they were doing, but thought that because they went to ATP they were much better pilots than anybody else.

The bottom line going through a certificate mill or a mom and pop FBO, you still have the same ratings at the end of it. I think that for some people programs like ATP make sense, but for others there is no need to "get there first".
 
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