Hold in Position - Delay for Wake Turbulence

jtrain609 said:
Yup, it's also the PIC's job to make sure his plane doesn't get flipped upside down because a controller screwed up. Ever been upside down because a controller put you a little too close before? Not fun.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you -- but I thought it was quite silly to see this 737-900 pilot telling Newark tower that they needed 20 more seconds behind the 757-200. Newark probably does the 737 behind 757 sequence probably 100 times a day! They weren't going to get flipped upside down.
 
Nick said:
Newark probably does the 737 behind 757 sequence probably 100 times a day! They weren't going to get flipped upside down.
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Wouldn't it still bounce you around pretty good though... Maybe waiting another 20 seconds will give them a smooth ride as opposed bouncing the cattle around int back.

I got bounched around pretty good one time by a Mig's wake. That was kinda fun for me. My student was a bit uneasy but it was neat to get passed in the downwind by the Mig.
 
Nick said:
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you -- but I thought it was quite silly to see this 737-900 pilot telling Newark tower that they needed 20 more seconds behind the 757-200. Newark probably does the 737 behind 757 sequence probably 100 times a day! They weren't going to get flipped upside down.
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Don't eff with 75s.
 
The DoJet is pretty small, but if we depart from an aircraft that's primarily GA ... the next guy out is almost always told "caution wake turbulence from the departing jet." ATC has to play CYA, too.
 
seagull said:
Have you?
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Haven't gone all the way over, but I've gotten my butt kicked (60-80 degree banks) when I got vectored too close behind a 737 a handful of times. I haven't had a problem on departure yet since I'll usually out climb the heavy jets out of Burbank on most departures until I can make my turn (400')
 
BTW The real point I was trying to make is that if you don't wait the perscribed time, and you don't follow SOP and you don't do everything to cover your butt then you could well end up in front of the chief pilots desk trying to explain why you did what you did. You bend metal while following the book and people are going to shrug and say "Eh, #### happens." You bend metal while skirting the rules and the guys up top are going to be forced to cover THEIR butts and say, "Well you shoulda followed SOP" and bad things might well follow. At least that's how it works around these parts.

SOP is there to protect us from ourselves. Not to help ATC, not to help the company and not to help the freight in the back. It's to protect US from making dumb decisions, so why not follow it? And if it causes undue delay or it's unnecessary then change the SOP and be done with it.
 
Nick said:
And 30 planes in line for takeoff!


I saw a 737 taxi onto 22R at EWR starting backwards to use every last inch of it, then line up the right way, and when tower said cleared for takeoff he came on and said "Nope, we need 20 more seconds for separation." Tower said okay sir takeoff clearance cancelled, you just let me know when you're ready to go. I suspect the tower knows what they're doing as far as timing wake separation but maybe not. It's only their job.
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Just an FYI but the last time I had recurrent CRM in EWR and the tower controller came and talked to us he stated the EWR separates departure traffic off of radar distances not time for wake turbulence. He also said that if you require more time ask and you'll get it but like you said he asked us to do it in a timely manner prior to a position and hold. I've never had any trouble out of EWR.
 
It all boils down to PIC's decision...out of our hub airport at Airnet, we'd (prop pilots) always received wake turbulence holds for our Lears. Once a pilot was online for more than a day, it was always a wave the hold, please.

On the other hand, one of Airnet's fatalities (a while ago) was a Baron (I believe), trying to make the early turnoff at CMH behind a 75, and he ended up planted in the ground and on fire. He later died because of trying to get too close to a 75 and getting in the wake.

Just remember, it's your behind that will pay the ultimate price for doing something that possibly shouldn't be done. It's also your behind, if you choose to stay behind a Lear (or insert other types of airplanes) for more time than you think is required. That's why it's called Pilot In Command.
 
jtrain609 said:
Haven't gone all the way over, but I've gotten my butt kicked (60-80 degree banks) when I got vectored too close behind a 737 a handful of times. I haven't had a problem on departure yet since I'll usually out climb the heavy jets out of Burbank on most departures until I can make my turn (400')
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Well, surprised that's happened to you. I flew light aircraft out of LAX, ONT, SNA, BUR and others for years and never got rolled that far. I have felt it start to nibble, but always yanked back and got out of the vortex before my bank exceeded 30 degrees.

As far as following procedures for CYA, obviously can't argue with that!
 
Stone Cold said:
It all boils down to PIC's decision...out of our hub airport at Airnet, we'd (prop pilots) always received wake turbulence holds for our Lears. Once a pilot was online for more than a day, it was always a wave the hold, please.

On the other hand, one of Airnet's fatalities (a while ago) was a Baron (I believe), trying to make the early turnoff at CMH behind a 75, and he ended up planted in the ground and on fire. He later died because of trying to get too close to a 75 and getting in the wake.

Just remember, it's your behind that will pay the ultimate price for doing something that possibly shouldn't be done. It's also your behind, if you choose to stay behind a Lear (or insert other types of airplanes) for more time than you think is required. That's why it's called Pilot In Command.
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Well put.
 
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