Going over TBO....flight school

slushie

slushie

Still here.
Always thinking about a future leaseback for profit, I am wondering where I should stand on this. I am solid about doing everything legitimate, legal, safe, and with the utmost integrity.

How do you feel about flight schools taking A/C past TBO? I just saw a flight school 172 for sale on ASO, with 2400 hours on the engine. Obviously TBO is only a suggested or recommended time, but with good reason behind it. People have said things like, "Oh, with the planes flying everyday, the engines are a very well lubricated, and you can take 'em way beyond TBO..." And if it were my plane on lease, obviously another 500 hours of income on the plane before shelling out the cash for a new engine would be great.

But is it safe?
Is it ethical?
Would you do it as a flight school? As an A/C owner?
Are you comfortable flying a plane like this?
 
100% legal as far as the feds are concerned, but....
100% stupid as far as lawsuit waiting to happen if the engine quits.

I know of an airplane that is approaching TBO, but was involved in a prop strike about 400 hours back, and had everything done to the engine except call it an overhaul. There is a good chance that that one will be flying past 2000 hours;)

I'd fly it if I knew the airplane.
 
slushie said:
But is it safe?
Is it ethical?
Would you do it as a flight school? As an A/C owner?
Are you comfortable flying a plane like this?
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1. Yes.
2. If the engine is sound-yes. If you're a slum lord type of person obviously not.
3. Most flight schools do it. As a co-owner of planes leased to a flight school we do it on both aircraft.
4. Of course. If I thought for one second that the engine was less 100% I wouldn't let anyone rent until the problem was fixed.

TBO is like Max gross is to some people. Its a number to take 1/4 over recommended
 
BajtheJino said:
1. Yes.
2. If the engine is sound-yes. If you're a slum lord type of person obviously not.
3. Most flight schools do it. As a co-owner of planes leased to a flight school we do it on both aircraft.
4. Of course. If I thought for one second that the engine was less 100% I wouldn't let anyone rent until the problem was fixed.

TBO is like Max gross is to some people. Its a number to take 1/4 over recommended
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:yeahthat:

If the aircraft is not abused and taken care of properly then the engine can be in great condition. I've heard the mechanics talking about some of our aircraft engines and at times they can be looking brand new getting TBO and some look like they are thousands of hours after TBO even though they were just overhauled.
 
So for those of you who do/would do it, would you base the decision on compressions? If so, what kind of numbers? And at how many hours would you swap it, regardless of current performance?
 
Hope your insurance is paid up if you're going to run an engine beyond TBO.

Anything goes wrong, and you're going to get your ass sued!
 
If I were going to purchase an aircraft with an over TBO engine, I would have an A&P do a compression check and check the overall condition of the engine and components. The compression should be withing the ranges specified in the engine maufacurer's GMM (General Maintenance Manual). Just like you'd take a used car to your mechanic before you purchase it.

I personally wouldn't go over TBO. The school is probably selling it because it's a liability and don't want to find another engine to replace it or get that engine overhauled. Every engine change I participated in, the engine was just under or at TBO.
 
Yes...I'd fly in one. I own an airplane, know the plane..the engine etc. I've got about 800 hours left on the engine, so we'll see when it gets to that.

As far as 141 schools, I'm 99.9% sure they don't have a choice. They're required to do the engine or the plane sits if it's used for flight instruction. It can be rented out to pilots, but can't be used for flight instruction.

If you're considering buying a plane for leaseback to a school, go the light sport route. You can replace the Rotax (sp?) engine for about $6000 as opposed to a $15K overhaul...
 
MusketeerMan said:
As far as 141 schools, I'm 99.9% sure they don't have a choice.
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I don't think so unless theres a loophole out there. Both of the planes are at a 141 school. We do "annuals" every 600 hrs as per the Cessna Phase program. Oil analysis. Everything replaced as needed and these planes are top notch. When we did our last overhaul the final price tag, from a reputable company, came in a little under quote because the engine was in such a fine condition.

TonyW, excellent...
 
BajtheJino said:
I don't think so unless theres a loophole out there. Both of the planes are at a 141 school. We do "annuals" every 600 hrs as per the Cessna Phase program. Oil analysis. Everything replaced as needed and these planes are top notch. When we did our last overhaul the final price tag, from a reputable company, came in a little under quote because the engine was in such a fine condition.

TonyW, excellent...
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We're a 141 school and we have about 12 planes, 2 of which are new 172 SP models, and both have already had their engine's replaced. In our Arrow, we were given an extra 200 hours by Piper to fly the plane, but once the 200 was up, it couldn't be flown for flight instruction. I'll do some research and check the regs...
 
slushie said:
How do you feel about flight schools taking A/C past TBO?
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Unneeded overhauls are a waste of money. Isn't aviation expensive enough already?
But is it safe?
Is it ethical?
Would you do it as a flight school? As an A/C owner?
Are you comfortable flying a plane like this?
Click to expand...
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
 
slushie said:
So for those of you who do/would do it, would you base the decision on compressions? If so, what kind of numbers? And at how many hours would you swap it, regardless of current performance?
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Trend monitoring is the key. What you need to be looking for is a change in the numbers rather than absolute values. A one time compression check or oil analysis is going to be of limited use for determining how worn the engine is, unless it just so happens to uncover a serious problem.

I would watch for dips in the compression test numbers, increases in the oil analysis numbers, and drops in normal oil pressure and power output. Also cut the oil filter at every oil change and look for signs of wear.
 
OldTownPilot said:
100% stupid as far as lawsuit waiting to happen if the engine quits.
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tonyw said:
Hope your insurance is paid up if you're going to run an engine beyond TBO.

Anything goes wrong, and you're going to get your ass sued!
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What are these assumptions based on?
MusketeerMan said:
As far as 141 schools, I'm 99.9% sure they don't have a choice. They're required to do the engine or the plane sits if it's used for flight instruction. It can be rented out to pilots, but can't be used for flight instruction.
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I'm not aware of any overhaul requirement for 141 schools.
 
I don't think you're going to get your a$$ sued if something goes wrong...it's a recommendation to get an engine overhauled, not a requirement.

Also...I'm guessing it's our school's insurance that is forcing us to do the overhauls at the TBO. I guess I assumed that it was in the regs...though I'm going to find out the details from our chief pilot/owner about this.
 
I am not sure on the legalities on this one but 91.13 "careless and reckless" comes to mind. The feds love that one.

Secondly, if you hear these 5 words "Will the defendant please rise" can you defend yourself with 100% certainty?

Even if you get off from the feds and criminally, and the plane crashed into a house I bet you probably would be crucified in civil court.
 
slushie said:
So for those of you who do/would do it, would you base the decision on compressions? If so, what kind of numbers? And at how many hours would you swap it, regardless of current performance?
Click to expand...


I would base it on the oil anylisis more than anything else.

Compression tests can vary wildly on the same engine from one flight to the next. In fact if you get a low reading it is SOP to run the engine for a bit and redo the test.


I personally would not EVER overhaul an engine that wasn't not showing signs of metal in the oil, or a drop in power, or some other symptom of a problem.

I knew a guy who flew pipline patrol in a C-172 with 7000 hours on the motor.
It was in perfect operating condition and he had no plans of ever spliting the case.


OTOH, I would give the possible liability argument some credence if I were leasing it out to a school. This is the sort of thing that a PI lawyer would seize upon whlie asking for .5 mill.
 
I wish there was a poll option to show who among the voters has maintenance experience and how they voted.
 
"But is it safe?"

It is if you watch for metal in the oil and keep a close eye on engine performance and compressions.

"Is it ethical?"

I have no problem with it in that respect.

"Would you do it as a flight school? As an A/C owner?"

Would I? well, I have several times.

"Are you comfortable flying a plane like this?"

Yep.
 
"Anything goes wrong, and you're going to get your ass sued!"

I think that goes to say for any situation where "anything goes wrong"...
 
I agree that this is a normal practice at most part 91 outfits. Does the plane have regular maintenance? Or does it sit in a hangar and fly 3 times a year. I'd most likely fly one that is under a decent maint program. I have also flown many 91 planes over TBO. However I also knew the mechanics and trusted them.
 
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