The FAA, US Pilots & PIC Time

Olympic

Olympic

Well-Known Member
Over the past few days I've been very curious about the whole Pilot in Command deal in the United States. Having a few friends in regionals all across the U.S.A I was amazed to find that a lot of them are eagerly waiting for that UPGRADE position to start logging that oh so good PIC time to be able to finally apply to a Major or Legacy carrier and finally start flying the big stuff.

But...

My question is, do you really need to be Upgraded to CAPTAIN to actually log PIC time under the FAA? According to the JARs this is absolutely FALSE, even F/Os can log PIC time under the JAR. Maybe most of the people on here know this, but after asking a few buddies who are flying right seat in a regional about this, they actually told me they weren't sure.


I am currently an Airline Pilot in Europe and follow the Aviation Law of Europe, the governing body is the JAA. Much different than the FAA, yes in some cases but a lot of the rules are almost combined thanks to ICAO.

Straight from the Aviation Law books of the JAA:

Pilot In Command -The PIC is the pilot who is responsible for the safety of the aircraft and compliance with the rules of the air, during flight time.

Ok now that we established what Pilot In Command is ...

WHAT DOES THIS WORD CAPTAIN MEAN? AND WHO IS HE TO LOG HOURS AS PILOT IN COMMAND?

The word Captain is just a fancy word which actually means NOTHING, It's just there because it sounds good and has been in aviation from the start. The real word that should be used is COMMANDER.

Commander - A pilot designated by the operator who is qualified as PIC, who may delegate the responsibility for the conduct of the flight to another qualified pilot.

Ok now, in Europe all the pilots are Type-Rated .. even the F/O's. Under the JAA we as Type Rated F/Os are allowed to log our Flight Time as PIC time. When I say Flight Time I mean when the Captain hands over the controls of the Airplane to me, or when it's my leg to fly, just because the Captain is in the cockpit that doesn't mean he is PIC, Im flying, it's my plane ... he still is the commander just not the PIC.

Question: Does this exist under the FAA?

If an F/O let's say working for Delta is type rated in the 767, can he log his time as PIC time?

Back to the regionals ... a lot of the F/Os are not TYPE RATED , thus they cannot log PIC time, if a F/O working for a regional goes out and buys himself a Type Rating for the aircraft he flies, can he log his legs as PIC time? Or it is not allowed?

Im just curious because it would seem like a great investment to get your ass a type rating instead of waiting years for that Upgrade.
 
That is basically the same thing here in the US, you can log PIC time whenever you are the sole manipulator of the controls and are appropriately rated (ie multi engine land, type rating, etc). Most majors, if not all, here state PIC, but they really want time as Captain, not the "sole manipulator" loophole.


It is a bit backwards that you have to be a captain at a regional to be an fo for a major, but it is the game and you have to play if you want to "succedd".
 
I've got a type rating in the 757/767 and even when El Jeffe is back on break, he's still PIC because he's the one who signed for the aircraft and has ultimate authority.

Even though he's in the rest seat eating the duck and watching the Ali G show on the PTV.
 
If an F/O let's say working for Delta is type rated in the 767, can he log his time as PIC time?
Click to expand...

Just the Pot Stirrer in me but... If you are on at Delta or another major... #1 you already had the PIC time to get there.. And #2 Who cares?? It is all about the pay check... Personally, I don't even keep a logbook anymore.. As long as my pay hours = my pay stub.. That is all that matters.. :nana2:
 
The PIC at an airline is the name listed on the flight release as PIC, unless he/she becomes incapacitated inflight and the SIC has to assume the position of PIC. The PIC is the final authority for all decisions. At my airline the captain is the only person type-rated to be the PIC, but even if the FO was type-rated, the CA signed off on the flight and is PIC no matter what.
 
Plus, unless you're receiving flight instruction, there's only one PIC of record.
 
Sorry Icarus, nice try. This topic gets debated ad nauseum once every 6 months. If you are the Captain who signed for the aircraft; whose name is on the flight plan/dispatch release as PIC; and who is the final authority for the safe operation of the aircraft then you can log it as PIC. Don't even think about going to an airline interview in the USA having logged PIC while you were the first officer. Some airlines state specifically what they want.

Southwest for example:

Southwest Airlines New Pilot Requirements
  • Flight Experience:
    2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours TURBINE total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in command3, as defined below is required. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, helicopter, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO etc. NO other time is counted.
  • Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" for the purposes of application for employment as the Pilot ultimately responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. The Pilot in Command should also be the Pilot who signed for the aircraft and who is the ultimate authority for the operation of that flight. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander, Evaluator, or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.
Typhoonpilot
 
FEDEX is similar:

1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in-command (PIC) or second-in-command in multi-engine turbo-prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof, including a minimum of 1000 hours total fixed-wing pilot-in-command in multi-engine turbo prop A/C or jet A/C or combination thereof.
Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls.

Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.
 
There's no use arguing over this as it's apples and oranges. It's not simply a matter of whether the airlines are wrong or not. It's merely preference. All the airlines know the regs. The only PIC they care about is the PIC authority of the Captain. That's all they imply in the minimum requirements footnotes. I'm certain they all realize that we get a turn at the controls every other leg and what that legally means.
 
Just to muddy the waters a little bit more...

It is perfectly "legal" by the FAR's for a type rated pilot to log PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls, even if he is not the one that signed for the aircraft. Granted, most (all?) airlines do not recognize the sole manipulator time as PIC for their purposes, but it could still be logged that way based on Part 61. In reality it is not unusual in corporate flying (maybe fractional as well) to have both pilots be fully type rated in the aircraft, and swap seats and flying duties, even though only one pilot has actually "signed for" the aircraft. It is usually acceptable in this scenario for each pilot to log PIC for the leg that they fly.

The airline way is not the only way.
 
Boom Boom said:
This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew.
Click to expand...


Those dirty... :banghead:

And I love how helicopter is included with 8 non-flying positions and simulator. I mean, have these guys flown a helicopter before? Its a little insulting to be included with 8 positions where you generally don't touch the controls. 150 knots may not seem fast, but at 25 ft AGL it ain't exactly slow.
 
Hey Doug, am I remembering correctly that you don't have much TPIC from your days slogging it out in the 'regional trenches?'
 
Cruise said:
Hey Doug, am I remembering correctly that you don't have much TPIC from your days slogging it out in the 'regional trenches?'
Click to expand...

I think I started IOE after the first phase of my interview at Southernjets.

10 years of transport category jet time, two type ratings and a four year degree but I don't qualify for FDX! :)
 
falconvalley said:
There's no use arguing over this as it's apples and oranges. It's not simply a matter of whether the airlines are wrong or not. It's merely preference. All the airlines know the regs. The only PIC they care about is the PIC authority of the Captain. That's all they imply in the minimum requirements footnotes. I'm certain they all realize that we get a turn at the controls every other leg and what that legally means.
Click to expand...
Folks, read falconvalley's post a couple of times. It's one of the best descriptions of the difference between FAA time and airline application time I've seen.

To the FAA, "PIC time" is shorthand for "time that the FAA lets you count toward the requirements for FAA certificates, ratings and privileges that are labled as "hours as pilot in command."

In the airline application process, they tell you what it means to them, and it usually means "time in charge of a flight."

Two completely different purposes; two completely different requirements.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top