CFI spin training?
- Thread starter RPJ
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chestercfi
Well-Known Member
You can go to an authorized CFI for a spin training endorsement. He will take you through the motions of entry and recovery during the flight and most likely do some ground about spin awareness prior to the flight. The flight will consist of a few spins and he will check to make sure you have a general basis on what to do.
You will most likely not have do a spin on your test, primarily because you will find that the examiner does not want to do one in the plane. He may ask you about spin awareness and recovery during the oral, but its a very minor topic.
You will most likely not have do a spin on your test, primarily because you will find that the examiner does not want to do one in the plane. He may ask you about spin awareness and recovery during the oral, but its a very minor topic.
caliginousface
Frank N. Beans
You will just get an endorsement from your CFI saying he completed spin training with you. If you screw up on your stall recovery, or your knowledge of stalls and/or spins on the ground is not up to par, he or she may fail you and ask you to come back with an airplane that is approved for spins.
Out here if you fail for one of those reasons and you must use two airplanes (complex for t/o's and landings, 152/172/etc. for the rest of the flight+spins), the inspector will come out to your airport.
YMMV
Out here if you fail for one of those reasons and you must use two airplanes (complex for t/o's and landings, 152/172/etc. for the rest of the flight+spins), the inspector will come out to your airport.
YMMV
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
From what I know...and had to do, yes, will have to get an airplane into an actual spin and recover from it. What good is a spin training endorsement if you haven't actually been in a spin??
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, this is what it has come to..."just a few spins..."
The FAR that requires an endorsement for the CFI says you must "demonstarate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery."
"Instructional Proficiency" You must teach me spins. You must be my calm, cool, collected instructor who will put out a foot and push the opposite rudder when and if I do not respond in a timely manner and you must not let me see you sweat.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
They are real spins. Even though it tends to be a pretty minimal number, the idea is that you know enough to be able to teach them if necessary (that "instructional knowledge" stuff) and, perhaps more important, recognize the signs of an impending one and recover from one that a student may unintentionally cause.
Of course, done right, you =will= "go through the motions describing exactly the maneuver" but when actually doing it.
If you're nervous, don't worry about it. My first spins were for my CFI. the bad part is the anticipation. after the first demonstrated one ("count what?!") they are really no big deal.
Michael95U
Well-Known Member
Yes to the above and wear an approved parachute during the training.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Has anyone (did you?) ever try to wear a parachute in a 152 ???
I tried it in an old 172. Do you think you could actually get the door open and get out after you have "broken up" ???
I don't think I could.
CaptBill
Well-Known Member
Get comfortable with spins - period. Don't look at this from what is required. If you ever get into a low level spin you must instinctively know what do as you don't have a lot of time to think through the recovery procedures. One day I was determined to do spins until they got comfortable. I lost track at 30 spins in one flight. Quite dizzy for the rest of the day I might add.
bdhill1979
Gone West
I just did mine a few weeks ago and it was a blast!! We took a Super Cub and spun the hell out of it. I was scared at first, because I had never been in a spin and didnt quite have the confidence that what I have been taught would actually recover the aircraft, but after the first one it was awesome.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Is that before of after the initial surprise period? You've already been flying badly enough or distracted enough to put yourself into a low-level spin. I'd guess the surprise/reaction period is long enough for you to hit the ground before you can "instinctively react" to anything.
Never mind base to final cross-controlling. The typical takeoff spin accident was completely recoverable by simply lowering the nose to level at the point of engine failure (before even the stall, let alone the spin occurred) even though engine failures are practiced as nauseum.
Only an opinion, but I don't think the idea of recovery from a low-level unintentional spin is a realistic one.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
Of course, every one has one - an opinion, that is.
But what would you have us do? Give up? Don't even try to train yourself into being able, if it is at all humanly possible, to recover at least into a landing attitude before ground impact? Is that the point of your comments about spin recovery? I don't know. I'm not sure of your purpose in your remarks, Mark.
At the end of the day, I am much more comfortable flying an airplane that is mastered by me, rather than the other way around. That is really my only real point in all training.
Getting really proficient at spin entry and recovery tends to teach you the process of not getting into the spin to begin with much better than just saying you won't stall or spin. Like doing 'recoveries from bad landings', you get better at doing good landings.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I accept the arguments of those who claim that spin training builds better pilots as valid ones (that doesn't mean I agree with them).
But I don't think there's much validity to the idea that spin training is somehow going to save you from the result of bad piloting and bad judgment.
But I don't think there's much validity to the idea that spin training is somehow going to save you from the result of bad piloting and bad judgment.
USMC-SSGT
Well-Known Member
I dont think it is to save you from the result of bad piloting and bad judgement....
it is to save you from your STUDENTS result of bad piloting and bad judgement.
Any CFI knows that students will do the CRAZIEST things..power on stall and you say "keep the airplane coordinated" or something along those lines and some will STOMP the rudder to the floor and have the airplane on its way to a spin and you as the instructor MUST not only be capable, but comfortable to apply immediate action in a calm and cool manner to correct the situation.
Invaluable
it is to save you from your STUDENTS result of bad piloting and bad judgement.
Any CFI knows that students will do the CRAZIEST things..power on stall and you say "keep the airplane coordinated" or something along those lines and some will STOMP the rudder to the floor and have the airplane on its way to a spin and you as the instructor MUST not only be capable, but comfortable to apply immediate action in a calm and cool manner to correct the situation.
Invaluable
tgrayson
New Member
That's a little bit like the story of the drunk looking for his keys under the street light, because the light is better there.
So we teach oodles of stalls because we don't know what else to do?And you still have no supporting evidence of that. I find it much more plausible that the time is better spent developing prociency at the tasks which might lead to stall spin accidents. A high degree of airspeed control in normal approaches, emergency procedures, go arounds, and takeoffs would effectively eliminate the stall spin problem, if you ignore the knuckleheads buzzing their friends' houses.
I don't agree with this observation, so the analogy fails.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I agree. See earlier post. Your example? BTDT. Exactly.
nosehair
Well-Known Member
I guess you are getting a 'tunnel-vision' view of my overall training objectives, because we are discussing stall/spin training.
Proficiency in stalls and spins are a normal progression of the skills you mention. Learning the physical visual visceral motions of the aircraft about all it's capable axies, and developing a control touch and emotional response that leaves you the master of the airplane.
How can you be master if your afraid?
Talk to me. How do you develop complete control authority in a fledgling pilot who is learning these skills? Do you honestly believe that we can 'talk' about upset training, and that will be sufficient?
Do you honestly not see that 'bad landing practice' is benificial? Do you not teach how to go-around and how to add a little power to recover from a slight ballon? or making quick cross-control corrections for a 'simulated gust' ?
You can't just 'talk' about these things, no more than you can 'talk' a person through landing skills. They must be practiced.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
Having taught for a while now, I can say that being comfortable with spinning makes me a better instructor.
There comes a point in a students training when the student is practicing stalls and youve told them about coordination where you just say to yourself, "okay here we go..."
Also being so intimate with spin entry, i feel it allows me to be comfortable in letting a student make mistakes in the pattern. Here we are in a 172 at 50 kts on final uncoordinated.... is it pushing the envelope of safety? Yes. That is why my focus and attention is preventing anything from happening.
But if I wasnt there to talk to the student about coming in low slow and uncoordinated - they'd probably be doing it when i wasn't there. I'll take them up to 2500' and put the airplane in the same condition. Then I will show them that something has caused me to pull rearward on the yoke and the result.
They tend not to come in low, slow and uncoordinated again.
If I wasn't comfortable with the characteristics of a spin I wouldn't have the ability to be a good teacher because i would be guarding the controls way too much.
$.02
There comes a point in a students training when the student is practicing stalls and youve told them about coordination where you just say to yourself, "okay here we go..."
Also being so intimate with spin entry, i feel it allows me to be comfortable in letting a student make mistakes in the pattern. Here we are in a 172 at 50 kts on final uncoordinated.... is it pushing the envelope of safety? Yes. That is why my focus and attention is preventing anything from happening.
But if I wasnt there to talk to the student about coming in low slow and uncoordinated - they'd probably be doing it when i wasn't there. I'll take them up to 2500' and put the airplane in the same condition. Then I will show them that something has caused me to pull rearward on the yoke and the result.
They tend not to come in low, slow and uncoordinated again.
If I wasn't comfortable with the characteristics of a spin I wouldn't have the ability to be a good teacher because i would be guarding the controls way too much.
$.02
tgrayson
New Member
I thought we were discussing stall/spin training in order to produce safer pilots?
<<Proficiency in stalls and spins are a normal progression of the skills you mention.>>
That's under dispute. I suspect you could train a skillful pilot who had never stalled an airplane. Safe? Arguable. Knowing what a stall is does motivate the pilot to respect airspeeds.
<<Learning the physical visual visceral motions of the aircraft about all it's capable axies, and developing a control touch and emotional response that leaves you the master of the airplane.>>
"Master of the airplane" is relative. No one is ever a complete master. Stall/spin training increases proficiency in a very artificial flight regime. There is no data to suggest that there is any transfer of this learning to other flight regimes.
<<How can you be master if your afraid?>>
You will not eliminate fear for many pilots during PPL training; you might make some of them more afraid.
<<Talk to me. How do you develop complete control authority in a fledgling pilot who is learning these skills? >>
You never develop "complete control authority" in any pilot of any level. All you can do is increase authority.
<<Do you honestly believe that we can 'talk' about upset training, and that will be sufficient?>>
Of course not, but there are diminishing returns. The quick and superficial answer to stall/spin accidents is "more spin training." I'm skeptical that works.
<<Do you honestly not see that 'bad landing practice' is benificial? >>
Didn't say that. Your argument was that landings improve due to bad landings. I see landings improving after the student does something correctly. Bad landing practice improves the ability to fix bad landings. That's a different skill from making good landings.