PPL x-ride = PIC?

tgrayson said:
Remember, logging and acting are two different things.
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I pointed out the Examiner not "logging" it... to simply illustrate that in your scenario... you would have no documentation of a PIC for that flight... and that doesn't make sense.

tgrayson said:
There are other well-known situations in which no one can log PIC time, such as when a private pilot allows a non-pilot friend to fly the airplane.
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I have pointed you directly to a FAR that effectively summarizes my view as well as the view of the FAA on this matter. If you would be so kind... could you please point me in the direction of a Federal Regulation that states what you are claiming in this sentance?

Thanks,

Bob
 
Captain_Bob said:
I pointed out the Examiner not "logging" it... to simply illustrate that in your scenario... you would have no documentation of a PIC for that flight.
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And that is technically not possible. Someone has to be PIC, therefore someone can log it. It is possible to have one person acting as pic and another logging pic (safety pilot rule), but there is no way to have a flight without someone in charge up there.
 
tgrayson said:
Please show me a regulation that says this.
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FAA's Defintion of Pilot In Command:

FAA said:
FAR Part 1 defines the pilot-in-command as follows: "Pilot-in-command means the person who: ​
  1. Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
  2. Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight; and
  3. Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
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In the checkride scenario... a Student Pilot Certificate is the appropriate rating. Just as it is the appropriate rating to log PIC during a solo flight as a student pilot.

 
Captain_Bob said:
I pointed out the Examiner not "logging" it... to simply illustrate that in your scenario... you would have no documentation of a PIC for that flight... and that doesn't make sense.
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Why do you feel that there must be documentation for the PIC of the flight? And what does it do for the documentation when you have TWO PIC's of the flight? That doesn't make sense either, but you know it's possible.

Captain_Bob said:
I have pointed you directly to a FAR that effectively summarizes my view as well as the view of the FAA on this matter.
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The regulation you cited it irrelevant, because it pertains to acting as PIC, which is different from logging PIC.

Captain_Bob said:
If you would be so kind... could you please point me in the direction of a Federal Regulation that states what you are claiming in this sentance?
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I cite 61.51(e) which governs the logging of pilot-in-command time, and the scenario of a student on a checkride does not appear there.

Captain_Bob said:
Thanks
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You're welcome. :)
 
tgrayson said:
Please show me a regulation that says this.
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Seems to me that this about covers it:


§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.



Of course it doesn't say anything about logging it, which you are not required to do unless you are showing your currency. But you aren't arguing about logging, you are arguing that there are cases where no one is PIC.
 
tgrayson said:
Student pilots can log PIC when alone in the airplane.

I also do not see a provision in 61.51 for logging PIC during a checkride for student pilots.
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Ok, one more time:

If the student isn't acting PIC on the checkride, who is?

If the student IS the acting PIC, can't they log PIC? A student is not a student on a checkride. They are not receiving dual.
 
MichaelCPS said:
If the student isn't acting PIC on the checkride, who is?
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I'm comfortable with the idea that the student is acting as PIC.

MichaelCPS said:
If the student IS the acting PIC, can't they log PIC?
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Because 61.51(e) does not allow for it. This regulation is the one that says whether you can log PIC time or not.

There is no regulation that says that merely acting as PIC is enough to log PIC. There should be, I agree, but there isn't. Unfair? Yes!
 
tgrayson said:
Again, not relevant. Logging of PIC time is contained in 61.51(e). Logging of PIC time is different from acting as PIC.
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Break it down and read 61.51(e) a bit more carefully...

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot--
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
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That statement... combined with 61.47 seals the deal. During a checkride scenario... the airplane requires more than one "pilot flight crewmember" a.k.a. the examiner and the student pilot... and thus under 61.47 the examiner is not to act as PIC and he typically further states that the student will be the PIC in the brief... then... there you go. The student is performing the duties of the pilot-in-command... and thus can LOG it per 61.51(e).
 
Captain_Bob said:
is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
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:D Airship, maybe, but even then, the checkride does not require more than one crewmember.

But better....at least you're looking in the correct section. :)
 
OK... ya got me on the airship issue... my bad... I read that too fast. I just keep trying to make 2+2=4. No matter how hard I try... I just can't make it equal 5 like you want me too... ;)

tgrayson said:
the checkride does not require more than one crewmember.
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Yeah... 'cuz Examiner's give checkrides all the time to themselves... ;)

Logging Pilot-in-Command Time Read all of it... but most importantly... the last sentence.
FAA.gov said:
In summary, the person who is pilot-in-command may log PIC, others may also log PIC depending in the circumstances. ​
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meritflyer said:
Still not a requied crewmember by definition.
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Alright then... I'll go with 'you're right' on this one... the examiner is not a required crewmember. However, when the examiner specifically states at the onset of a checkride that they are not the PIC and will not be acting in any way as such... then.... who does that leave as the "required crewmember"?
 
Captain_Bob said:
Logging Pilot-in-Command Time Read all of it... but most importantly... the last sentence.
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I read it and the author incorrectly summarizes his own article. Everything else seems correct, but that last sentence is unsupported by anything that comes before it. In science it's called "extrapolating beyond the data." :)

The issue is very simple. Logging PIC time is governed by 61.51(e). Period. End of story. Every other regulation in Part 61 that mentions pilot-in-command is talking about acting as pilot-in-command.

Unless you can point to a regulation (or even a letter from the General Counsel's office) that says you can log PIC in a particular situation, then you can't do it.

Here's an example of what would be needed:
61.51(e)(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
​
That regulation would hardly be needed, would it, if it were universally true that we could log as PIC any time we acted as PIC?
 
Here's a Part 61 FAQ that has bearing:

QUESTION: We have an example of logging PIC in our presentation that you and I previously discussed on the phone a week ago. We've been challenged on our interpretation and I want to reconfirm it with you. The example is:
Two private pilots... Pilot A is manipulating the controls but has not made 3 takeoffs and landing within the 90 days.
Pilot B is the PIC for the purposes of Part 1.
Question: Which pilot logs PIC?

ANSWER: Pilot A may log PIC time in accordance with 61.51(e)(1)(i). Pilot B would have to agree to be the PIC in accordance with Part 1 because Pilot A is not current. However, Pilot B may not log the time as PIC time because 61.51 doesn't provide for it.
 
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